I recently saw some of the movie "Once upon a time in America" and while my mafia knowlegde is just growing, I would like to know more about who these people are and if they existed.

There was a Jimmy Conway in that movie, is this supposed to be the same Jimmy Deniro played in Goodfellas? Also was Goodfellas a true story, or did they just base the story on some real life things?

No - the 2 Jimmy Conways are completely different people. In Goodfellas - the real Jimmy Conway was actually called Jimmy Burke. He was alive at the time of the Goodfellas shoot and his name had to be changed - see below.

That is just a coincidence.

Once Upon A Time in America is is partly based on a book by an ex hood called Harry Grey. His real name was David Aaranson and he composed it in 1952 while in Sing-Song Prison. Apparently, it is said to be partly autobiographical - but I don't know which bits. I am sure one of the experts know.

But it was largely conceived by director Sergio Leone - who saw it as an unhappy fairy tale for adults - hence the "Once Upon a Time" theme.

There are some old posts about it. If you look in the General Discussion section there is a thread
about Once Upon A Time America Movie - last post
on July 9th. I don't think it deals with the truth issue - but some of meaning of the movie is explained.

There are also good posts about the origins of Goodfellas. Refer to Turnball's answer to Corey Bova's question about Wiseguy = Goodfellas posted accidentally in the Other Puzo Novel section. Based on a true story, based on Henry Hill's experiences - some of the names and details have been changed. The film was aided by the book "Wiseguys" by journalist Nicholas Pileggi in coordination with Hill. Pileggi was also responsible for the book surrounding Casino's true life main protagonist Lefty Rosenthal.

Wiseguy, that's one of my favorites but I never knew it was based on a book. I'll have to begin a search for that book. Thanks for that info.

Here's a short (translated) extract from a Sergio Leone's autobiography.

Sergio Leone :
"This movie was born out of our love for the American cinema and literature of the 1920s and 1930s. It could be called 'Once Upon A Time There Was A Certain Film Genre'. It is the portrait of America as shown by the Hollywood cinema that fascinated us. The main character is the sum of what all the other gangster films heroes have done before.
When I met the author of the book (Philip Goldberd, a Jewish gangster locked in Sing-Sing, wrote "The Hoods"), an ex-con, he told me that he had written, among other thgs, against Hollywood cinema, but what particularly struck me in his book was the similarity with Hollywood films. It is a perfect example of the way imagination takes over from reality. It is also an intimist movie which follows the souvenirs of a man. It may be the first time ever that a movie ends on a flashback. Hence the main character could have imagined his whole future thanks to opium, it could only be a journey in an imaginary world. I am generally fascinated by flashbacks because it allows you to tell a whole life story with very few images and also because it makes the story more mysterious and fascinating."

Franco Ferrini (one of the script writers) :
"Leone wanted to make a gangster movie but he wanted his mobsters to be Jewish, because he wanted to avoid the comparison with the Italian mobsters from the 2 Godfather films.

Right from the start the script took the opposite way of the story in the book. The novel is written by an insider but he lacks imagination. We all were aware that we didn't tell the history of gangsterism but his mythology revisited by European eyes."

Originally posted by Fanucci:

Wiseguy, that's one of my favorites but I never knew it was based on a book.

I would say its basis on the book is pretty loose.
I don't know much about this, but I believe it's not a great read - from the comments I have come across.

Almammater makes the point that the book
and script went in opposite directions.
Bare in mind also that the book was written in 1952 and that although the film project was about 10 years in consideration - the film was not made until 1982.

I am trying to find out more about this and the
claim that the book was in some way small way autobiographical. This sounds weird given that much of the time setting is long after the book's
publication date. Of course there is the fantasy element and the notion that much of it is an
opium influenced dream.

The book seems to be described as a novel and as part autobiography by different sources.

Confusing! Also Almammater and I have come up with different names for the author.

As Almammatter has read Leone's biography he is obviously much more clued up than me.

Almammater could you clarify for us some of these
questions, please ?
I will keep looking for info. in the meantime.

Also, the original movie trailer for Once Upon A Time in America is so dazzling that it gives a
misleading stress on its truth - with talk of it being a story that haunted a "nation for four decades"

Will be good to have some more answers on this one!!!!!

Sorry to be so vague!

Wiseguy wrote :
I will try to.

First of all, I've just noticed I mispelled the author's name : it is Goldberg. Wiseguy_1872, you mentioned a David Aaranson : I haven't come across that name lately although it sounds familiar to me... Noodles' s real name is Nathan Aaronson. Maybe you're referring to his brother in the book who's a journalist ?

I do have the book entitled "The Hoods" by a certain Harry Grey, "First published in the USA in 1953 as The Hoods" (I've got the English paperback edition : Bloomsbury Film Classics-The Original Novel) . And if you want to know details, it is 504 pages long and the size of a DVD jacket. I bought it a couple of years ago but never could find the time to read it then I sort of forgot it on the shelf... vergogna ! Oh well, so many books, so few time *sigh*...

My guess is that Philip Goldberg is the guy's real name and Harry Grey his pen-name. Here's what the bk cover says : "Once Upon A Time In America, Harry Grey, The epic and powerful story of an unforgettable era" + the credits from the film.

Inside it says : "As boys, they said they would die for each other. As men, they did. This classic novel, originally called The Hoods, inspired the epic Sergio Leone film which would be the benchmark of the genre. Spanning three generations of a family of Jewish immigrants, OUATIA tells the story of a gang of friends who discover through trust, hard work and brutality the true meaning of the American Dream. Pitting themselves against the best and worst of the local underworld, Noodles and his friends grow to become one of the most powerful forces in their local business world, forging new allegiances and uncovering old rivalries in their journey towards manhood and maturity amid the mayhem of urban America. At times brutal, but always honest, this is a classic story of America through its most violent era."

It is dedicated "To my true and loyal mob M., B., H. and S."

I still haven't read it but as I browse it I can see mostly dialogues and a first-person narrative, namely Noodles telling his own story.

The Sergio Leone bk I mentioned is technically not an autobiography in fact, its author is Oreste de Fornari and its original title Tutti i film di SL, but the first of the 4 parts is Leone in his own words and in the last part 12 of his colleagues (Dario Argento, Bernardo Bertolucci, Peter Bogdanovich, Claudia Cardinale, Ennio Morricone, script writers, photo directors, editors, etc.) talk abt working with Leone in their own words as well.

I obviously can't translate the whole bk but I will summarize + quote some more.

Lots of ppl worked on the scenario, Norman Mailer was the first but Leone was disappointed with his adaptation of the bk so he turned to Italian script writers. They made long thorough research on Jewish history in Russia and in America (in the East Side mostly) and mentality because SL wanted to be accurate and authentic. Sergio Donati mentions his perplexity, "What do WE (Italians) know abt the Jewish East Side ???. It's as if an American director told the story of Trastevere (an Italian town) in the 1930's. It's like the Sicilian episode in GF where everything seems absolutely fake. The risks are huge. At least SL could have hired an American art director."

An anecdote : SL is not the one who found the idea of the babies swapping but he used it 'cuz he wanted smthg as powerful and colorful as the GF's

"The Hoods" is an autobiographical novel. It's the story of a small time hood, like a diary in which he lists his burglaries, homicides, rackets, hobbies, thoughts... and from time to time, we can trace the causes of it all through episodes of Jewish family life and talks between the gangster and his brother who's a journalist. The film is more romantic than the novel. [...] No part of the book remained as written. In the novel, the youngsters catch the local cop in the act with Peggy, the building's Lolita, in the stairwell. They make fun of him, threaten him and that's all. In the film, the meeting occurs on the terrace roof where Peggy is hanging up the washing. The boys take a compromising picture of the couple. Then they blackmail the cop who will give the watch back to them. Later on he will become their accomplice. They will now be able to have sex with Peggy for free. Thus the episode refers to both the past and the future. It introduces the theme of blackmail and that of desire... All in all, it is put into perspective."

Franco Ferrini (one of the script writers) :
"The bk ended in 1933, there was nthg abt old age, whereas the film ends in 1968. With no particular reason, maybe just to let ppl understand that later thgs could have changed a little."

I've never seen the movie trailer so I can't say anythg abt it.

The bk summary talks abt 3 generations but there's none of it in the film. There's no family story. Max does have a son but we see him only for a short mmt by the end, so it can't be considered as an episode abt the second generation...

In the coming days I'll be going back to the cinema library to do some more research and I'll let you know abt it.

Now I don't want to seem to be preaching for my own church but I've been working on a website on "Italian-Americana" since last year and this summer I started doing an English version, that's why I've been reading many crime bks and movie guys bios lately. I'm using a lot from this SL bio so if you want to read more you'll have to wait till my pages go online (or find the bk yourselves if it was translated into English).

Mamma mia, what a long post ! I hope you won't throw sh*t at me for that !

Almammater

Thanks for all the excellent info
Almammater.

Your excellent insights are always appreciated.
Do not worry about your long posts. They are always relevant and concise - I wish I could
say the same about some of my rambling mutterings!!!

It is much appreciated. I got my details about
Harry Grey's real name being David Aaranson
from my my British Film Institute Modern Classics textbook which said
"At the very origins of the project lay an autobiographical book published in 1952, The Hoods by 'Harry Grey' (pseudonym for David Aaranson), which Leone stumbled upon in the late 1960's"

This could of course be completely wrong as could be the internet sites that say the same. I thought that Noodles name was David Aaranson
too - rather than Nathan. As I recall, in the 1968 movie scene in Deborah's theatre - when Max's son makes his first apperance - Deborah says something like
"His name is David, just like yours"
But I haven't seen the movie for a little while
and may be wrong.

On the net there is a real void in information specific to the book - it all seems tied to the film, with the book itself mentioned only in passing. I am sure you can make use of this in your website.

I will take this opportunity to wish you well with your "Italian Americana" website and its English version. Bonne chance!!!!

I was introduced to Once Upon A Time in America in June of this year!

It is a 5-Star Movie, it's the 1980's answer for The Godfather!

It's the best non-Puzo Mob Movie you'll find as it has a story OUTSIDE of the Mob, the firendship, loyalty, and betrayal!

OUATIA is the perfect example of why Movies are made. Intriguing story that leaves viewers wondering twenty years later, beautiful period visuals, the best 1920's NY since GF2!

From 1907-1968, David Noodles Aaronson led an amazing life filled with betrayal, lost love, romance, loyalty, friendship, honor, and drug abuse.

Another reason Robert Deniro has been one of THE top 5 actors of the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, and on into the 2000's.

I can't say enough GOOD about this movie.

It is a Movie and Story you will never forget!

Imdb.com says DeNiro's role was based on Meyer Sucholjanksy. (Meyer Lansky, Hyman Roth, etc,)

It can argued as an alternate Biography.

Harry Grey could have experienced the same things.

Childhood friend being murdered, jail term early in life, death of two friends, betrayal by the third, lost love that led to Rape, and a life-long drug Addiction! Yet he could have been a factory worker that translated his story into a Mob story for artistic purposes.

I'd listen to Noodles talk for days on end if I could!

Have we found out any more about th efull length flick tho ?

Originally posted by Camillus Don
Have we found out any more about th efull length flick tho ?
I used to own it. It is 227 min long. It is sometimes known as the 'European version' and was the one shown at the Cannes Film Festival in 1984. It cost me about £45 (I guess this is about £70 dollars or so)as it is a deleted title over here in the UK. We get the full version on cable here split over 2 nights to make it more palatable to our British short attention spans.

Sergio Leone ran into difficulties with the American release - The Ladd Company for US and Canada specified a length of less than 165 minutes. A test audience in Boston in February 1984 did not like the 228 min version - finding it confusing.

This was trimmed to a 147 minute so called 'American cut' with all scenes arranged in linear chronology to avoid the 'confusion' experienced by the test audience.

From my discussions with other members of the board it seems that those who have seen the film
have now seen the 226/227/228 (must be the same one)minute original version and that it is fully available in the USA. I am guessing this, because you have talked about the flashback method being used with frequent switches from the nineteen thirties to nineteen twenties to nineteen sixties and back again etc etc.

I believe that this longer version was not readily available in the States for some years and that the 147 minute version
was predominant. I therefore attach a

SPOILER***********SPOILER*******SPOILER

- spoiler warning in case you do not want to know
how how the short version omits elements from the original.

In the amended 147 version:- (SHORT VERSION)

1. Deborah leaves by train in the 1930's and never returns - this eliminates the the relationship triangle between Max, Deborah
and Noodles - as Deborah never ends up as Max's girl.

2. Eliminated are the scenes introducing Young
Max and the establishing his relationship with Noodles.

3. Cut from the 1920's section is the scene where the guys roll a drunk and the rooftop scene
involving Noodles, Max, the cop and Peggy.

4. Noodles and Deborah at the restaurant is trimmed - including the brutal rape scene.

Some of the changes were geared towards toning down violence - particularly sexual violence.

I would guess that a DVD version is on the cards
by 2004 - yet to be confirmed, presumably and hopefully in the original 228 minute cut. I
would guess a VHS version of this would come out in tandem.

However, there are rumours of longer versions
integrating another 45 minutes of material.
Leone wanted to reinstate this material for an
Italian TV mini series version, but my sources say this never happened.

This is a complicated and messy affair. I am
truely sorry if I give you any incorrect info,
it is always possible that there are even more versions out there.

Like a wise man once said
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.

I have the full-length version, and it is available here in the U.S. (The running time on my tape box is 226 minutes, yet all the web sites selling it list the time as 227 minutes. Regardless, its still a little shorter than the Italian version, which is listed as 238 minutes).

It sells here for about $25.00, and its worth the investment for any collector of mob films.

Thanks a lot SC.

Between us - we're getting to grips with
this question.

Can you tell us what scene(s) are included in
the Italian 238 minute version that are
excluded from the version most of us seem to have viewed?

Also - do you know when a DVD of the original version is available as my information is a bit vague. Is it already available in the USA?

I've copied (below) the additional scenes listed on IMDb that were supposedly in the FULL length version, that were not included in the 227 minute U.S. version:

....................... SPOILER MATERIAL LISTED HERE .....................

Italian original version of the film is 236 minutes long. The US distributor cut over an hour and a half for the 139 minutes American version; after much critical protest, the film was shown on network TV in a 192 minutes cut and finally was made available in an almost complete 227 version on video (which reportedly still omits segments from the scene where Robert De Niro rapes Elizabeth McGovern).

According to an interview given by Sergio Leone's son in november 1998, Regency and Warner are planning to reconstruct and re-release Sergio Leone's original 250-minutes director's cut and have requested the missing footage from him. Among the missing sequences that may be restored to the film are:

Noodles as a kid comes back home after the failed attempt to steal the drunk's clock and finds that his father has eaten all his dinner;

Noodles and Max rob a black trumpet player and steal his wallet and trumpet;

Old Noodles (De Niro) notices a black car following him after he leaves Riversdale Cemetetery, and he takes notes of the license plate. The same black car is later seen blowing up in front of senator Bailey's house

Noodles gets drunk after his failed attempt to rape Deborah; he picks up a hooker but falls asleep in the bed instead of having sex with her;

An old Jimmy O'Donnel (Treat Williams) meets senator Bailey and convinces him that suicide is his only way out.

British versions have been censored to remove the scene where a gun is pressed into a breast.

The Japanese Laserdisc contains 2 extended scenes cut from all U.S. theatrical & video prints:

Opening murder contains extra shots of Darlanne Fleugel suffering and being shot a second time before dying.

DeNiro's rape of Elizabeth Mcgovern is much longer and more graphic.

The so called director's cut does not exist in a finished state. Nino Baragli never edited the extra scenes and the cast didn't sound loop their dialogue to those extra scenes.

The 2 cuts made by the BBFC in the UK (a gun being pressed to a woman's breast and De Niro tearing off Elizabeth McGovern's underwear in the rape scene) were reinstated in the (now deleted) widescreen version.

There is a picture/still from 'Once Upon a Time in America' which is often in books/chapters on the film. The picture is of Noodles (De Niro) and Eve in bed together, and Noodles is getting out of bed holding a gun as he's clearly heard someone coming in. This scene is definatley not in the 227 min version.

I have not heard of any expected DVD release of the movie.

Thanks a lot SC.

Thanks for taking the time to get that information.

It was very informative.

First of all, Wiseguy, thanks alot/ mille grazie for your encouragements. I appreciate your posts a lot too, they're alws informative and clever, not "rambling mutterings" + (sorry I'm late) congrats on your rise in La Famiglia ! But gee, you aged sooooooooo fast I couldn't recognize you !

1) You're right abt Noodles's real name, I checked the scene you mentioned ("His name is David, just like yours") and I also thought abt another one, the cemetary scene. Then I've made some more research and here's what I've found :

From the book "SERGIO LEONE: SOMETHING TO DO WITH DEATH" By Chistopher FRAYLING

Chapter 11, Once Upon a Time In America, an outline for the shooting script as it existed in October 1981:

"1968. The same inscription from Isaiah 3.25, 'Your men will fall by the sword, your heroes in the fight,' is seen over the entrance to an elaborate marble mausoleum in Riversdale cemetery. As Noodles [Robert de Niro] enters, he hears 'music he hasn't heard in years' - Cockeye's flute, piped into the building from two loudspeakers. When he closes the door, it stops. It is the tomb of Maximilian Berkovicz 1908-1933, Patrick Goldberg 1909-1933 and Philip Stein 1909-1933, and the building has apparently been 'erected to their everlasting memory by their friend and brother David Aaronson - Noodles. 1967.' As Noodles reaches for a little key, hanging from the 'd' in Noodles - the woman director of Riversdale enters the tomb and tells him that Mr. Aaronson 'left the whole thing up to us,' sent a tape of the music, and paid through a foreign bank. She is upset that the gardener let Mr. Williams [the name under which Noodles is living in old age] into the mausoleum when he isn't a relative."

And yet my video cover says "Nathan AAronson" and so does the French book abt Pacino + DeNiro that I had mentioned in another thread. I'm confused because the two authors are what you can call "reliable"... Maybe they have the same video with the wrong name and didn't check before writing their analysis... :p

2) The real author's name of "The Hoods" : still searching. We need Sherlock Holmes here ! Could you ring him plz !

3) Yes, there's not much to be found on the web, even on Italian and Spanish sites. Most of the SL sites deal with his westerns and only briefly mention his other films.

It seems like I'm fulfilling that void with my Italian-Americana site !

4) The SL biography I mentioned does exist in English and is called : "Sergio Leone: The Great Italian Dream of Legendary America" by Oreste De Fornari.

5) Misc. : - read that Scorcese very loosely based his "Gangs of New York" upon OUATIA and consequently shot it in Cinecittà. First time I read that.

- PRESS RELEASE :
AMC Premieres "Once Upon A Time - Sergio Leone" on August 24. I created a new thread to post the article.

6) my French video tape says 4h12, that's 252 minutes, so it's pretty close to the Italian version. And it cost me less than £10 a few years ago ! An offer I couldn't refuse !
HERE you can find full details abt the different versions.

End of my report for today guys ! More to come ! Truth will out !

Almammater