how would you describe her?

Great question Lavina, I was torn between "victim" and "wrong girl in the wrong place." I felt pretty bad for Kay throughout the films (well, the first two anyway), but I hear most people say that she's a real pain and annoying. Should be an interesting poll.

Thanks, Kitty!

You see, Kay is a GF character that really puzzles me. Because, no matter how I try, I'm not able to let her please me. I mean, I never liked her, but I can't see a REAL reason why. It could be an unconscious jealousy, but I did liked Apollonia, so why? I'm sure Kay loved Michael, at least at the beginning. But she tried to change him -- couldn't she see he could not change? Michael did not hide her what his family was. She knew it from the start. That's why I think she was the wrong girl in the wrong place. It's true Michael promised her to legitimate his businness and leave that lifestyle....but I'm not sure he even really tried. She lost a daughter. That is why she could be a victim. But she also aborted a child without telling Michael she was going to do it....I don't know...I don't like her.....But not to be too cruel and define her a pain in the ass, I voted "the wrong girl in the wrong place".

I also voted "wrong girl, wrong place," but for a different reason:
Everyone in the Trilogy had freedom of choice, and made free choices. Kay chose to marry Michael, but I don't believe she actively tried to change him. Instead, she chose to believe him when he said that he would change, or that the circumstances of his life were changing around him.
The key scene, IMO, is when Michael went to New Hampshire to court Kay after returning from Sicily. She asks what happened to his vow not to be in the family business, and he replies that his father is "no different than any other powerful man with responsibilities toward others." Kay replies that Senators and Governors don't have people killed. Michael replies, "Now who's being naive?" He adds, "My father's way of doing business is finished. In five years, the Corleone Family will be completely legitimate." Kay buys it.
This scene tells me that Michael really wanted to be legit--but he alone would define "legitimate." Sure, Senators and Governors lie, cheat, take bribes and cause deaths (presumably by voting to send troops to war, or by cutting healthcare or welfare programs). Therefore, he's no different. If they can be considered "legitimate" while doing bad or illegal things, then he can be "legitimate" for his own malfeasances. I don't think Kay caught that subtlety.
Michael needed Kay, the ultra-WASP from a "respectable" family, as part of his quest for legitimacy. I think she saw that. She probably liked to think of herself as an "uplifting," or "reforming" force in Michael's life--a lot of women of her generation who married "beneath" them did. But their expectations clashed completely. That's why I count Kay as "wrong girl, wrong place." Apollonia would have caught on right away, and accepted Michael--and his life--at face value.
Kay eventually gets it. In the novel, Kay chooses to raise their kids in the Catholic Church. Michael is "disappointed" because he wanted his kids to be more "American" (i.e., Protestant). But in the last scene in the novel, Kay goes to Mass every morning with Mama, both of them praying for the souls of their murdering husbands. It's ironic: Kay adopts Michael's born religion because that's her way of dealing with his born nature. It's as if she finally accepts that he's a killer, and now believes that she can help redeem him from his sins.
GFIII has an even better denouement for Michael's fantasies of "legitimacy," and Kay's role: In his study during the party, he gives out another rationalization for his life of crime: "I spent my life protecting my family from the horrors of this world," he shouts. "But you became my horror," she replies, firmly. Right, Kay!

I chose others because I do not feel that any of the choices would describe my thoughts about her. I actually think she should have refused to marry michael when he returned from sicily, but I think she was in love, and couldn't reason. But having taken the decision to marry a gangster, she should have been more adjusting, knowing well that michael wouldn't change. So my judgement of Kay is that she was immature and took a hasty decision. But she paid the price for it. Kay was somewhere in between a victim and a naive person.

If you mean the films, her character is absolutely inconsistent, as the result of taking one person with her beliefs, qualities and feelings, and suddenly changing her into some other character, rather unrealistic in itself.
If she loves him, then she will love him despite being criminal, because she knew him to be murderer when she married him. If she is not stupid, and she never seemed before, she will understand obvious things and will not do stupid ones. If she is a decent human being, as she seemed to be, she will not betray her husband in the most difficult moment of his life, even if she didn't love him anymore, because it is mean and unfair.
I don't know how to rate her.
As to the novel, I don't really think something's wrong with her. It's time to grow up at last.
BTW, Lavinia, what prevents you from reading the novel?

I don't think that she does realize that he's a murderer when she marries him. Remember, Kay knew the same Michael that we did at the beginning of the film. At that time, he was doing everything he could to distance himself from the family. She really doesn't see him after his "transformation" on the night of his first encounter with McCluskey. He went into hiding because of the crime he was "wrongfully accused of". As an outsider, Kay probably truly believes that. She has no understanding of the subtleties of that explanation.

The next time she sees him, she is older, single, and living at home again. He assures her that, although he has joined his father, he will make the family different, legitimate. She believes him, because that is the nice, college boy that she fell in love with. She buys into it, probably because he professes his love for her and his vision for their future, which is just what she wants to hear.

Remember, she had no closure with Michael. He was taken away from her when she least expected it. Although Michael has changed, her love for him hasn't, because it was given that chance. He reappears in her life, tells her that he still loves her, and, because she still loves him, she goes along for the ride. It isn't until the scene with Connie that she begins to understand what kind of man she has married.

I put wrong girl in the wrong place, but that's probably not entirely true. I always kind of pitied Kay in the beginning, especially in GFI, after Michael pretty much left her. She must have really loved him to marry him anyways, and he was pretty persuasive, although, for what it's worth, I've always found Michael to be a tiny bit scary during the scene where he "proposes," after he returns from Sicily. He's so obviously a different person from how he was at the beginning, IMO, but Kay didn't seem to register it.

As for Kay in GFII...I began to hate her after that. I don't think anything excuses her for aborting their baby. Politically, I am very much pro-choice, but for someone to abort a pregnancy, behind her husband's back...I think that is 100X worse than anything Michael put her through. They both made alot of mistakes in their marriage, but Kay's was the worst.

I voted pain in the ass cuz I just don't like her at all. She knew what business the family was in and chose to marry in it. Even though Mike said he would go legit. She was a smart woman she should've known better. I hated that they killed off Appolonia. She would have made him a good wife. Kay got on my nerves in all 3 movies.

I voted pain in the ass becuase at the end of the first one, and there on out, she was an evil little bitch and deserved to be smacked around. She knew damn well what she was getting into, then decited she was going to change the "sicilian thing, thats been going on for thousands of years" and considering everything she did to Michael, fuhgetaboutit.

Now I am fully convinced that she was an idiot. Who would take years to find out that michael was evil. Her foolish decision to marry micahel,caused a lot of grief both of them. In a way michael too deserved it, why did he go to her after so many years?

nothing, really! In fact I'm planning to read the novel as soon as possible. Being part of the BB (especially reading YOUR posts! ) made me understand that there are too many aspects in it that FCC left out of the movies and that can make the difference in understanding the characters psychology (that's what I really am intrigued by).

I went for Wrong girl,Wrong Place as well

Pain in the ass. Reasons described above.

Well, I rarely disagree with Coppola, as you know , but this is one of those places where to my absolute belief he changed the novel without reason. It was much more natural when he didn't mean to say a word with her anymore, understanding that she is lost for him after his murders, and SHE found him after all, and married being told enough, after a long consideration.

Wow!! I didn't realize so many took Kay as a pain in the ass. I put other. She was kind of all (except pain in the ass). She was a victim kind of, but got into the situation of her own free will; she was smart and loving, but IMHO, and although I can't put my finger on exactly why, she lacked warmth to an extent.

Although, I've always felt Appollonia would have been the "better" wife, the Kay character was necessary to bring that "conflict" between Kay & Michael. Appollonia would have been another mama, keeping quiet and turning her cheek to any of the family business, and would have never gotten an abortion, which is one of the most dramatic and I think important scene in the movie.

TIS

I think Appolonia would've mad a better wife and mother to. But that got me thinking would Mike still have been so cold hearted and calculating and ruthless if she was still alive?

I voted "other" because of the following reasons:

In my opinion, Kay was a good choice for Michael BEFORE he decided to join up with the family business. He was different then. He was a war hero, a soldier, had average morals and ideals, was away from the influence of the family long enough to develop his own set of morals & rules, and he probably couldn't envision himself with someone like Appollonia (or even his own mother!) at that time. He was completely Americanized. Along with his "Americanization" came his "American dream": the wife, small family of 3 children with a house with a white picket fence around it, and all the other typical American ideas that other American men had at that time. After all, he spent very little time with his family members while in the service--and certainly not while he was becoming a hero! Naturally, he was going to be attracted to a woman who also shared those same ideals. When the whole curtain of American ideals came crashing down ontop of him, he had nothing else to hold onto except what he was taught at home by his father. As I mentioned, he was totally brainwashed by the U.S. Army by then that it was no surprise to me that he completely embraced the lifestle, which included Kay.

Now, Kay being the "modernized" woman that she was, fell in love with him for various obvious and common reasons, but was unable to separate the man she loved from the reality of his family. And that is why she, like sooooooooooo many other American women wind up not just accepting a relationship that is so far down her own olive branch but also PURSUES it! She, like countless other women, have this ridiculously false and painfully inevitable idea that either they or their love for the man will CHANGE HIM. They think that somehow, through their faithfulness and perseverance in this man of theirs will somehow, someday wake him up to the error of his ways and help him see that his wife/lover was right all along, see that she is the best thing that has ever happened to him, and make this unbelievable metamorphosis into the man she knew he could be. NOT!! How many times have we either, as women, experienced this very process ourselves (sometimes MANY times!), or have either seen or gone through it with other women (usually very close friends) even though we have tried our very best and with the best of intentions to show her the warning signs along the way?? And what do we get for our good intentions? A lot of grief! That is, until the friend gets completely burned and comes crying back to her senses--and you--looking for an understanding shoulder to cry on.

Well, this is how I perceived Kay. She was hoping upon hope that Michael would not get drawn into his father's business--and she mentions that fact several times in the movie. I think she really knew deep down inside that she was fighting against a force that was much stronger than she, but she loved Michael so much that she would go to any lengths to spare him that horror. Unfortunately, Michael comes back from Sicily after experiencing his new wife's brutal murder (for which he probably blames himself) and a gaping hole in his heart. The hole in his heart can easily be filled with Kay's love. Kay does not realize the absoluteness of his change nor the futility in trying to change him. She doesn't realize this until she fights with him the day she tells him of her abortion. Even then, she approaches Michael as the typical American wife--she thinks that because of all the years of devotion she's given him, that somehow this will aid her in a divorce and in getting custody of their children. I don't think she ever realizes the totality and finalness of his rule until GFIII, and because I saw it only once, I really can't comment any further.

In conclusion, I think that no modern, American woman would have been able to accept and live with the realities of a life with Michael Corleone--or any mobster for that matter. They would definitely have to have come from the same fabric as Mama Corleone or Mrs. Clemenza, etc. Even Sandra, Sonny's wife, seemed to have more of what was needed to have a successful marriage than any of the other women, but specifically Kay.

I actually think that Coppolla and Puzo picked the correct type to play Kay. I think Diane Keaton was probably the best pick for this part. Diane Keaton was exactly what Coppolla and Puzo wanted for the part of Kay. I don't know too much about Diane Keaton, but the little I know of her really does fit the bill in this instance. No where in the movie is there an explanation of the movement of Kay or why she was moving (when she was leaving Michael). It is what other women like Kay do--they have reached the end of their rope of sanity and just cut it from the thread!

That's about all I can comment on regarding my opinion of Kay's inability to accept the totality of Michaels change.

~~ Lollie

I voted 'Smart, affectionate wife'.

Kay most certainly was not a victim...because though she believed Michael when he said the Family would one day be legitimate...she knew full well of the business he was in with his father and the world she'd be marrying into.
Not to mention the fact that she apparently wasted no time taking him back after hearing nothing from him for several years. NOT a victim.

She was certainly NOT in the wrong place at the wrong time, because when you think of this relationship with Michael that lasted all those years....what the heck is the WRONG place and what the heck is the WRONG time?

If anyone were in the wrong place at the wrong time...it would've been poor Appolonia.

And she may have been at times a pain in the ass...but again, that's going back to the promise Michael made that one day the Family would be legitimate. She was only calling him on his word and then taking action when she FINALLY began to realized it was a promise he could not keep.

So, until there was no other road to take...I'd have to say Kay was a smart, affectionate wife - AND mother.

Apple

Apple

I liked this question and enjoyed reading the responses. When I was making my choice I could actually find cause to put her in all the categories. But, I chose victim. I dislike the Kay character but when I think back on the scene where Michael approaches her after all those years, Kay is very hurt and is crying. She asks Michael why after all these years and she tries to be rational when she explains to Michael that its too late. But he comes off with this "I love you" "I'm working with my father but his way of doing business is over and even he knows it" - was Michael's way of getting what he wanted. I think I read in one of the books on the making of the Godfather that there was a part in the script that actually had Vito presurring Michael to put Sicily behind him and get married as it was his responsibility to start a family.
Anywy - good topic.

And by the way (If you are still concerned about it ) It will skyrocket your English!

I'm ALWAYS concerned about my English, JustMe... Especially after I came across a couple of boarders whose style and vocabulary were so good that I believed they were English mother-tongue and then it came out they were not!

I don't know Lavinia. Your English in your posts always seems fine to me!

"Monday, Tuesday, Friday, Sunday, Staurday.... "

No, seriously, your writing is excellent in my eyes!


Don Cardi

are you shortsighted?????

Thank you, DC. I think I'll forgive you for that missed dinner....

Thanks! A couple? Ah, you mean Afs!
Gee, my dear, ask someone "English mother tongue" and probably they'll tell you that some of your posts may easily be taken for - eh - Walter Scott's.
But really, reading helps!

The border between flattering and making a fool out of someone is extremely thin.....

Yes, you are right. My fault - I was buttering old man Scott shamelessly. Anyway, I think he doesn't care much from beyond for what I think about his style.

I voted for wrong girl at wrong tima ane place because we have to take Kay as a woman of her times, which was the pre feminist era. Here she was this New England WASP who was dating a Sicilian (probably to her parents' chagrin). Moreover she slept with him out of wedlock, and then he dumps her. She goes back to New Hampshire and starts teaching school and is relegated to being an old maid. In those days such women were considered to be failures by much of society because they never married and reproduced. By coming back into her life Michael gave her the chance to make an "honest woman" of herself. She is a bit on the whiny side, however, but not to the level of pain in the ass.

I voted "a pain in the ass".

Does it say in the book how they met.Can't remember Obviosley we don't see it in the film