Hi,

I know that there are a lot of Pentangeli fans on this board, including myself. He is such a character. Who would have liked to see Clememza in part 2 instead of Pentangeli? I heard that the original idea was to have Clemenza turn on Michael. Thoughts?

For that very reason, I'm glad that Clemenza wasn't in Part II. It was easier to accept that a new character was the one who turned on Mike.

Welcome to the boards, TS.

But did Pentangeli really turn on Mike? Pentangeli was tricked into believing that Mike tried to whack him, so he made a deal with the FBI to rat him out. However when Pentangeli saw his brother sitting with Michael, he immediately realized that his loyalty should have been to Michael, and he basically screwed his own immunity deal by recanting his earlier testimony which would have resulted in Michael going to prison. Then, as the ultimate sacrifice he killed himself with the understanding that his family would be taken care of. I can see that Clemenza would have fallen for the same rouse, but I thought the Pentangeli character was really a plus.

Sure he did. It doesn't matter if his testimony before the Senate committee was a fait accompli or not, Pentangeli went public against Mike.

I would rather Peter Clemenza played the part of one of the Corleone family's Caporegime, but I would not like to see him betray Michael Corleone, as in the previous movie he was 'percieved' as one of the Corleone family's most loyal associates.

I'm new to these boards, so thanks for your replies!! I've been a Godfather fan for a long long time now.

When one of the Rosato Bros. said, "Michael Corleone says 'Hello,'" that threw Pentagelli off into assuming that Michael wanted to kill him. Pentangelli isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Pentangelli, if smarter, would have known that Michael normally does not instruct his buttonmen to say, "this is from michael corleone" before a murder anyways, which is plain ole' sloppy and arrogant. I think if Michael wanted someone to know that they were being killed by his order, he would have done it himself (the police captain and the Turk). Make any sense?

Welcome aboard Tony. I do not agree that Michael would have done it himself. In fact after he killed Sollozo and McCluskey, that was pretty much it for him. After that he would order others to do the wet work.

One thing about that scene I never understood was that the Rosato Brothers did that "Michael Corleone says hello," thing presumably to make Pentangeli think that Michael had betrayed him. But if they were going to kill him, what difference would it have made? The only apparent reason the hit failed was that a cop wandered into the bar and stared asking questions ....unless Roth staged it so that Pentangeli would NOT die, and then be kept alive in secret.

I completely agree. Michael Corleone was too smart to say "Michael Corleone says 'Hello'," before murdering someone. That is something I would expect his father to warn him about.

I agree in that I wouldn't like to see Clemenza betray mike, since he was loyal in part one. On the other hand, wouldn't that preface make a "clemenza betrayal" more effective in part 2? I think it would have delivered a harder punch knowing that clemenza stayed loyal to the end by killing himself in prison and keeping his mouth shut. But then again, we wouldn't get the chance to see Pentangeli drink out of a garden hose and call champagne "champagne cocktails..." haha

don tommasso,

I agree with you in that Mike would "outsource" his wackings on a normal basis, but there is some small evidence that Mike may still have the killer in him--the main example being the "other" scene of him taking out Fabrizzo with the shotgun. But then again, that scene was omitted, so I guess it doesn't count? Sticking to what is in the movies, Mike's killing days were over and done with after the captain and the turk, you're right.

Wasnt there another omitted scene dealing with the killing of Fabrizio? I think a deleted scene in GF II shows that they tracked him down to Buffalo New York, and whacked him outside a pizza place he opened. I seem to remember Michael being very satisfied they finally got him.

If Roth was sly enough to coordinate a whack job so fine-tuned that it would 1) involve whacking Pentangeli 2) have a cop interrupt the job 3) make Pentangeli think that the whole job was Mike's idea 4) Scare Pentangeli into thinking running to the FBI.....I would say that Roth is smarter than Vito himself!! Turnbull can elaborate on this scene for us, I'm sure. haha

Hyman Roth was intelligent, yes, but saying he was smarter than Vito Corleone is exagerating. I personally think Vito Corleone could have ordered the murder, without somone of Michael Corleone's intellect being suspicious of him.

Yes, Roth is not as intelligent as Vito, for sure. I don't think Roth engineered the Pentageli whack job so well that it incorporated the cop. I think the cop just happened to wander past the tavern at that time.

"Clemenza" will always be a special character to me because Richard Castellano lived and died 10 blocks from me in North Bergen, NJ. Unfortunately, I didn't know it at the time. I wish he was in Part II, even if he turned on Michael.

i definatly like the character of clamenza alot more then i do pentangeli. i also feel that had clamenza been in part 2, there would have been a feel closer to the first one(i don't know if anyone else feels that there is a different feel to the second one). but i also would not want to lose frankie five angels. no way...if they were able to fit both characters in part 2, then that probably would have been interesting.

I completely agree with mr. soprano. Having Peter Clemenza active in The Godfather Part II would have made it seem alot 'closer' to The Godfather, and the original family.

mr. soprano, you hit the nail on the head. Yes, it would have been awesome of Clemenza was in Frankie's position, and Frankie was in Willi Cicci's position. That would have, like you and peter clemenza said, tied the 2 movies together tighter.

I just liked Clemenza. He was a likable and believable character. He reminded me of a couple of uncles I had who were just like him. (Except the crimes, of course!) I think Clemenza and even Tessio were very down to earth and seemed like the kind of men who would have been a big part of a family like the Corleones. Not only were they "employees" of the family, but they were part of the family. I loved it especially when Clemenza was bringing Michael back home from being hit by Mccluskey and Clemenza remarked to Tessio about all the new faces. Tessio goes on to tell him about hitting Tataglia's at 4:00 this morning. Clemenza's remark was, "Jesus Christ! The placelooks like a fortress." To me, that was the human part of Clemenza. He was totally a part of Don Vito's life. I only wished they would have had him in GFII. What did he die from? When did he die? What a loss to the film industry!

~~ Lollie

He died 12/10/1988 of a heart attack, in North Bergen, NJ.

I would have liked to see Clemenza in addition to Pentangeli and not instead of him. Clemenza and Pentangeli are two different characters and there is no reason why they could not co-exist. It is true that the Pentangeli character was invented by Copolla after castellano made demands that Copolla could not agree upon. But they were so different in their nature. Clemenza was one of the closest persons to the family, probably after Tom Hagen. After the shooting incident with Vito, you can see Clemenza acting like a real family member. He was concerned about michael, he gave him a lot of advice before michael killed solozzo. Clemenza also had the instincts of a mobster, he was personally involved in killing a Don in the elevator and also Carlo.
On the other hand Pentangeli was a more of a funny guy and very lovable. We do not see him kill anyone. We do not know what qualities he had to qualify as a mobster. But you can definitely see that he was one of the guys who was always loyal to the family (at this moment I can see you jumping with the question - what about the testimony against michael? ). The answer to that is simple. Yes he betrayed michael, but he was not like Tessio or Carlo or Fredo. Pentangeli was a victim of michael's games, and in a way michael was the architect for his own betrayal. Pentangeli was among the old timers. He was proud to be associated with the family. He was against drugs, that Vito was also against. Even tom acknowledges his role before in organising the family into capos and soldiers, before he forces Pentangeli to commit suicide. He says to michael "Your father never trusted Hyman Roth". That was prophetic and at the same time was something that I believe even clemenza would advice michael in his early days. Both Clemenza and Pentangeli believed in Vito's way of running the family and probably never understood michael's mind.


I agree with SC. Having Clemenza betray michael would be shocking, similar to Fredo's murder by michael. I am happy that the idea was abandoned.

I never could have accepted Clemenza being a traitor! We see Clemenza and Tessio with Vito from the early days. Only FFC was clever enough to show us a sincere side and a personal side of Clemenza in both GFI and GFII. We never really got to see a personal side to Tessio in either movie. So in GFI it was easier to accept that Tessio was a traitor. In GFII, we are shown a personal side to Frankie, and for the most part we grow to like this guy. If I found it a bit disturbing to accept that Frankie was a traitor, I cannot even imagine having to swallow Clemenza becoming a traitor!


Don Cardi

Clemenza was a wonderful character, but Michael V. Gazzo as Pentangeli was just as wonderful. He's "Everyman as Capo," bewildered by the new way of doing things, trying to do his best, often doing his worst.
As for "Michael Corleone says hello:

As I've posted many times: Why would Tony Rosato utter that line to a guy who was only seconds away from death—unless he intended him to live? Doesn’t it prove that Roth had planned for the New York cop to come in and foil the “murder attempt,” so that Frankie would live to indict Michael?

In a word: No. Not even Roth was clever enough to have bet his life on a split-second-timed plot to turn Frankie against Michael. Why would he even try, when he already had Michael in his killing-bottle in Havana? The simplest explanation is one that has been uncovered by Godfather scholars in an interview with Danny Aiello, who played Tony Rosato. Aiello admits he ad-libbed the famous line, and Francis Coppola, for some reason (probably inadvertence), permitted the ad-lib to remain in the film, to the eternal bafflement of Godfather fans. But it’s also possible that Coppola, the most careful of directors, allowed it to remain because it fit the plot, even though the Rosatos intended to kill Frankie all along. “Michael Corleone says hello” was intended not for Frankie—but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie.
It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams at Tony’s brother (played by Carmine Caridi) after the cop enters and Carmine draws his gun). The Rosatos know that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of the Rosatos to identify them as the killers. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta. So they hand Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.” Clever Roth!

I always felt like they were "teasing" Clemenza being the traitor with this line :

Don Corleone -- you once said that the day would come when Tessio and me could form our own Family. Til today, I would never think of it. I must ask your permission...

And Mike says not til they come back from Nevada.

Clemenza spoke up about leaving the family not Tessio and then Mike said NO.

Just my view of things

As I've posted many times: Why would Tony Rosato utter that line to a guy who was only seconds away from death—unless he intended him to live? Doesn’t it prove that Roth had planned for the New York cop to come in and foil the “murder attempt,” so that Frankie would live to indict Michael?

it’s also possible that Coppola, the most careful of directors, allowed it to remain because it fit the plot, even though the Rosatos intended to kill Frankie all along. “Michael Corleone says hello” was intended not for Frankie—but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie.
It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams at Tony’s brother (played by Carmine Caridi) after the cop enters and Carmine draws his gun). The Rosatos know that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of the Rosatos to identify them as the killers. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta. So they hand Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.” Clever Roth! [/QB][/QUOTE]

Once again, this proves one thing and one thing only....Turnbull is a good man.

Since Clemenza was such a likeable character in Part I, and was The Don's most loyal associate, I would rather watch Pentangeli (whose character I did like)turn on Mike than Clemenza.

Danny Aiello has stated that that line was an ab lib.

Frankie Five angels never really thought he'd have to testify.Remember the scene at the Army barracks when he says 10 to 1 he {Michael}takes the fifth.Frankie was shocked and his heart was not in it.I believe that even if they didn't bring his brother to the hearing he still would not have dimed out Mike.


And I want everybody here to know there ain't gonna be no trouble from me