What do you think?

Either him or Joe Louis...but Rocky did go undefeated throughout his career.

Ali in his prime would have outboxed either of them.

Going strictly by records, Marciano would take that claim (as greatest heavyweight), but I go by what I heard and have seen. My pick would be either Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali.

My dad saw some of the greats fight, and he swore Louis was the best. He also said that nobody punched harder than Marciano.

Marciano was champ when I was a little kid but I was too young to really remember him then. Ali was the best I've ever seen in my lifetime.

No one can match Marcianos record.But Ali was the greatest of them all followed by Mike Tyson.

Butterbean. Greatest? Oh, I was thinking fattest. I watched Ali in his prime. What made him great was the way he could adapt a style to fit his opponent. He had speed and deceptive power. Not having seen Marciano or Louis....can't say.

Marciano would have killed Ali, prime to prime. Ali danced around opponents and wore them out, and Rocky could not be worn out, being widely repsected as the champ with the most endurance of all time. Rocky charged at people in an aggressive manner and just punded them, which Ali never experienced anything like. Marciano was a viscious hitter, and could hit twice as hard as Ali. Marciano KO11 Ali.

Ali faced some heavy hitters himself... Joe Frazier, Chuck Wepner and George Foreman are a few who come to mind. In total, Ali's opponents were much better fighters than those whom opposed Marciano.

Using the same argument as you, Marciano never faced anyone of Ali's caliber. Ali would have hit the Rock at will, and Ali was surprisingly strong. Ali was a smarter fighter, and would've easily outboxed the slower, lumbering Rock.

Marciano, on a few occasions went into the late rounds behind on points only to win by KO in the late rounds (when he beat Joe Walcott for the title, and later Ezzard Charles, for example). Ali would've danced away in those later rounds and won by decision.

It's Ali. His nickname is "the greatest". The record is the only reason to consider Marciano. I agree with SC that he didn't have to fight as many great fighters. Ali was able to claim the heavyweight championship three times. I find it very impressive for him to come back like that after losing the belt to reclaim it. Marciano as great, but Ali was the greatest.

If you've ever seen any heavyweight boxing in you life you know Ali was the best. He's having a laugh half in his fights, it's like Manning throwing those TD's - it's just for fun baby.

Muhammad Ali was out of this world different. I've seen a lot of the old fights, there were some great fights, but no opponent was Ali. Marycas said it perfectly that Ali would adapt a style to beat his opponents. His guard was terrible, but he hardly ever needed it. He could leave his arms out stretched as a guard and use his footwork to evade and counter anything. And the speed he'd counter with...ooof.

If anyone doubts Ali as the greatest heavyweight well I think they've never seen boxing.

Ali would not have hit Rocky at will... Ali danced around and tried to wear out his opponents, and he didn't hit as hard as Marciano. Watch the Foreman fight, and watch Ali use this tactic almost exzcluseively. Rocky wasn't as fast, but he was a crowder, and would have easily been able to get in on Ali and slug him; Rocky had more endurance than anyone, even Ali, and what happens when Ali runs out of gas first and stops dancing?? Let's just say he won't be standing for long.

He danced around opponents and hammered them with shots. Marciano was an intense crowder and had more endurance than any heavyweight champ ever. Plus, he hit much harder than Ali. Ali's dancing wouldn't be very effective in the first place because Marciano would have crowded him and, like he did to so many others, beat their arms down until it hurt... he'd just slam with his power their arms. Ali would have no chance by keeping his arms up as guarding the smaller and slower Marciano, becuase he's just crowd him and if need be beat his arms down. Secondly, Ali had more endurance than everyone he faced.... but Marciano had more endurance than Ali. What would have happened when Ali couldn't of danced around anymore and hammer like like a butterfly? Marciano is still easily enduring, and his regular self, crowding him and brutally slugging.

And by the way, Ali lost 5 fights. He's no the superman some people say he is. Marciano didn't fight a great deal of fights against tough opponents, or in their prime, but neither did Ali and at least Rocky went undefeated. I've seen basically every major fight from tapes, and I've been a fan for 20 years... I believe I know boxing, and Rocky was greater than Ali.

By the way, here's a link to a couple pages that do an alright job explaining about Marciano's greatness...

Marciano Overrated? A comparison between the Rock and other champs.

Marciano\'s toughness

You think Ali had endurance? Ha!

The only fighters of note that Marciano beat were an aging Joe Walcott (Rocky beat him when Joe was 37, and again when Joe was 38), an aging Ezzard Charles (Rocky beat him twice when Charles was 33), an already aged Archie Moore (who was 42 when he lost to the Rock), and a completely over-the-hill Joe Louis (who was 37 when Marciano beat him in his "comeback" fight).

Other than that, he never beat anyone who I ever heard of.

It's true that a fighter only needs to be good enough to beat the opposition that's around at a particular time, but if these guys were the best then it was a no "Golden Age" for the Heavywight Division, and whoever was champion at he time has to be regarded in that light.

The bottom line is that Rocky built his 49-0 record fighting mostly bums.

What you have to remember about Ali was his absolutely unprecedented, before or since, blinding speed when he was in his prime. Marciano wouldn't have been able to "crowd" him. He wouldn't have even been able to get near him. Ali had a big advantage in height and reach, and by the late rounds Marciano would have been so exhausted from chasing Ali, that Ali would have easily finished him off.

As far as Ali's defeats go, remember that he lost three years of his prime (while undefeated), fighting his draft status with the government.

His first fight back, he lost to Joe Frazier, a Marciano type brawler, who he subsequently beat in two rematches.

The rest of Ali's defeats came when he was basically past his prime.

Marciano was over-rated because of the deception caused by his 49-0 record.

He would have lost to either Ali or Joe Louis, assuming the fights took place when all were at their peak.

Ali didn't fight tough opponents???? Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman not tough????

I've seen basically every major fight either live on tv or on tape, and I've been a fan for 40 years.... I believe I know boxing, and Ali was greater than Rocky.

One last thought - Marciano's career spanned 9 years, while Ali's covered 21. Ali fought his touhest bouts and opponents in a time frame long after Marciano hung them up.

Who you ever heard of? Maybe you just haven't taken an interest to the 50's era of boxing? You've never heard of Roland LaStarza, Rex Layne, Don Cockell, Carmine Vingo (who subsequently retired), or anyone like that? And about the age thing...
Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott
But...
Dempsey was 13 years younger than Willard
James J. Jefferies was 12 years younger than Bob Fitzsimmons
Louis was 12 years younger than Braddock
Ali was 10 years younger than Liston
Holmes was 6 years younger than Norton
Spinks was 11 years younger than Ali
Tyson was 14 years younger than Trevor Berbick (WBC Champion)
Tyson was 12 years younger than James "Bonecrusher" Smith (WBA Champion)
Jim Corbett was 8 years younger than John L. Sullivan
Marciano was 10 years younger than Archie Moore
But wait....
Ali was 19 years younger than Archie Moore!!!
Patterson was 21 years younger than Archie Moore!!!!
Joe Louis was 9 years younger than Max Schmelling. (Max KO'd Joe and was later KO'd by him)
Louis was 12 years younger than Jack Sharkey
Ali was 8 years younger than Henry Cooper
Ali was 7 years younger than Patterson

Age questions occur with every fighter.


Bums??? Because theres no media attraction to fighters from that period? Because this was before boxing became as popular as entertainment as it later became? LaStarza a bum? Cockell a bum? Walcott a bum? Charles a bum? A Joe Louis past his prime a bum? (who by the way admitted that he would never have beaten Rocky.)


Uh... Rocky would have crowded him. How would Ali defend against that and dance around? To stop Rocky from crowding, he would need to use his arms, which he likely would with superior height and speed, and Rocky would pummel his arms down. Rocky actually crushed bones in his opponents forearms throughout his career. And by the way, Rocky HAD MORE ENDURANCE than Ali, by far-- even Ali-fan experts will tell you that. Rocky could go 20 rounds, and Ali would not be able to dance around and wear the Rock out.

Joe Frazier was an elite fighter, but he wasn't Rocky Marciano. They were different boxers, but yes, they both were brawlers, but in different ways.

Okay, he's past his prime. Five losses.

Actually, his 49-0 record make people underrate him, because they immediately think that's somethings just wrong or easy about the career.


Sure, Alie fought Norton, Frazier, Foreman. But in the context of comparison to Marciano, it wasn't that different. Those were Ali's toughest fights, the rest of his career was against usually "substandard fighters," supposedly like Rocky.

So? Marciano decided to stop fighting after 9 years, and Ali continued on. Ali lost three more fights after his prime, so what's the point? Those extra years weren't successful. His prime was ending after the Foreman and Frazier epics.

Not to mention Ali fought 61 fights to Marciano's 49... but compared in time-to-fight ratio, Marciano fought on a much more regular basis, even subtracting Ali's 3-year period of non-fighting. And in 49 fights, Rocky had 43 KO's, compared to Ali's 37 KO's in 61 fights. Ali had his three or four fighters that were good, but just like Marciano most of his fights came against "no-names," not better than Marciano's "no-names."

So, career-wise the age or quality arguments work against Ali just as much against Marciano. And, head-to-head, Marciano WOULD have crowded Ali and eventually knocked him out, as I explained in tactic above.

To repeat:

The only fighters of note Rocky ever beat were well past their prime.

Yeah, I heard of Roland LaStarza, and Dan Cockell, and a couple of others Ricky beat. Only because Ricky beat them. Otherwise, they were nothing but a bunch of bums.

As was he.

Down through boxing history, with very few exceptions, it has been proven time and time again that a great boxer can always beat a great puncher.

Ali would have kicked Rocky's ass big time.

Even Max Baer, a very under-rated champion, would have handled Marciano easily.

To repeat:

Rocky was nothing special. He happened to come along at a time when the division was weak.

He would have lost to Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Jim Corbett, Larry Holmes, Max Baer, or Mike Tyson.

He was one step above being a bum himself.

Um... alright. I didn't realize this was your level of knowledge in regards to boxing. You're just being ridiculous now... yeah, Marciano was a bum, and would have lost to all those guys. And I especially liked how you explained how Ali would have beaten Rocky.... oh wait, you didn't. I explained how Rocky would have beaten Ali, and that's exactly what would have happened.... care to counter that? I'm not exactly sure you know the difference between them besides name and face recognition.

I don't know if you want to get into detail with Marciano vs every fighter you mentioned, but even Joe Louis said "I didn't like to be crowded, and Marciano always crowded his opponents. That's why I say I could never have beaten him."

I'll confess to be facetious when I called Rocky a bum.

But there was now way that the much slower Marciano, with his shorter stature and reach, could have beaten Ali.

I thought I explained how I think the fight would have gone. If I may elaborate on my scenario:

Ali, dancing and jabbing, Rocky chasing him a nd missing him. Rocky trying to crowd Ali into a corner, where, with his longer arms, Ali would have Simply tied the Rock up.

Ali is way ahead on points going into the late rounds. Marciano starts to swing more wildly, hoping to land the one lucky punch that can turn the tide in his favor.

In round 12, Ali, sensing Rocky's desperaton, decides to go for the K.O.

Instead of dancing he now stands flat-footed, and as Rocky wades in, Ali starts to land punches which are harder and crisper.

Standing toe to toe in the center of the ring, Ali lands a quick left and right, and Rocky goes down on all fours. Barely beating the ten count, he is met with a series of lethal combinations from Ali, and he goes down again.

Once more he beats the count, but the referee, realizing that Marciano is seriously hurt, stops the fight.

Ali, jubilant during the post-fight interview, entertains the reporters with some of his famous poetry.

"I whupped him bad
And I wasn't being cocky
When I told you guys
That I'd K.O. Rocky"

I will give you this, though, Signore Sole:

Rocky Marciano was unquestionably the best Italian Heavyweight Champion in history.

Marciano was slower and smaller. But he was stronger and had way more endurance.

Ali would be dancing and jabbing, but Rocky would just be plain crowding. They'd go into a corner if that's where Ali led them. Ali's long arms would have been beat down, as Rocky would frequently do. He'd be right up to them and just bash their forearms until they stopped tangling and guarding.

Ali would have a good chance of being ahead on points. But being crowded and having his arms beat down whenever he tried to guard or tangle would severely effect his amount of landed punches. If Ali would be up on points, it would be by a slim number.

Ali would not still be dancing and jabbing in round 12. He'd be very worn out after the Rock had been crowding him and beating his arms down the whole fight. Plus, Marciano is still as relentless as ever, with his incredible stamina. Ali can't keep dancing and is wearing out, guarding a lot more, hoping to just win on points or find Marciano open for a jab. Rocky is pounding away, and Ali's forearms are mush. Ali, too worn out to successfully dance and jab (which never was successful in the first place with Rocky's intense crowding) and his arms to beat up to guard well, is forced into a more standard, flat-foot punching brawl in the last few minutes of the fight.

Marciano decides to drop Suzie-Q now that they are basically just exchanging punches. Rocky's great stamina allows him to throw a still powerful right hand (which was stonger than Ali's in the first place) and inevitably land. Rocky could throw a few Suzie-Q's in several seconds if he happened to miss because of his supreme stamina. It's about the 12th or 13th round and that right hand lands, and Ali staggers in attempt to get up, but just can't beat the 10 count. Marciano wins by KO.

Rock Marciano, while Ali is wiped out in his corner being observed by a doctor, speaks and says how good the fight was and that Ali was a great fighter, and that he was just lucky to land that right-hand to end it, his usual modesty not fooling the reporters who know that Rocky was just too much for Ali to handle.

I'll give you this, Muhammad Ali was unquestionably the best black heavyweight champ from the 60's on.

Marciano and Ali were two different style fighters. I would have to say, from films I've seen and books I've read, that Marciano was the all time greatest. Ali was the greatest of his era, no doubt. I believe that Marciano was NEVER knocked down in his whole career! They say that he punched so hard that he used to break the blood vessels in his opponents arms when they would use thier arms to block his punches. In my book, Marciano the best, with Ali a close second.

Don Cardi

^ Yeah, that's correct about his punches. He hit insanely hard. I believe Marciano was knocked down in his career, twice... both times he basically stumbled in footwork during punch exchange so they weren't actual knockdowns. I'm assuming that's what you mean.... God knows he was never knocket out .

It really is impossible to compare fighters, or any other athletes from era to era, although it is fun to try. I firmly believe that my favorite team, the Packers under Lombardi were the best football team ever. However, when looking at the roster and the size of the players, it would be almost impossible for them to compete with today's players. They had an offensive line, filled with all-pro players, that averaged around 250lbs. The dominant Cowboys teams of the 1990's averaged 310lbs. Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger.

I saw some of the Ali fights during the 1970's and even then he was so much faster than his opponents. My opinion is that Ali, with about an extra foot of reach, could sit back and jab Marciano at will. You can't say that this would never have had an effect on Marciano because he never faced anyone that could do that. For the times that Ali would get backed into the corner, he has shown that he can take brutal punishment (the Foreman fight is the best evidence of this). For this reason, I go with Ali.

Lots of jabs being thrown here. Does my feeble memory serve me correctly? I seem to remember a "computer" fight between Ali and Rocky that was suppose to settle the argument. I believe that Marciano won. Sorry, pl.

There was - it was on Wide World of Sports one Saturday. I remember my father and I watching it and I wanted Ali and he wanted Marciano. Marciano ended up winning the fight, but I don't remember how. I don't think it was a knockout, though.

It was in black and white, but I would love to see the "computer" they used back then.

"Float like a butterfly
Sting like a bee
Ain't no way
The Rock beats me

I heard it from Mohammed
Up in Heaven
That big Italian guy
Will fall in eleven"

Signore-

I hope you're at least old enough to have seen Marciano fight when he was actually still active. You seem to be defending him quite vehemently. Since he retired in 1956, I'm assuming you've got to be at least 60 years old to remember even part of his career with any kind of detail.

My vote for greatest Heavyweight ever is JAMES "BUSTER" DOUGLAS! Ha!

P.S. Larry Holmes actually matched Marciano's 49-0 record at one point before later losing.

Float like a turd,
Stink like one too.
Ali was nothing,
but a sack of poo.

I don't believe that, but hey, I thought...why not. :rolleyes:

That's all fine and dandy on paper... but I explained above how Ali's dancing and jabbing wouldn't win the fight for him-- how Marciano could go right through that. The Foreman fight is a huge example, though.... Ali waited for Foreman to wear himself out, but Ali would wear out just standing there before Rocky would wear out throwing punches. Rocky's stamina was incredible. Also, Marciano was even a harder hitter than Foreman, to top it off. So... Ali was great and the greatest in his era and since, but hey, Marciano was better.

That computer fight predicted what would have happened, a Rocky KO of Ali in the later rounds, but I wouldn't go by that. I don't care what that computer says, even though I agree with it. It was just some old piece of junk. It just happened to guess right.

Why do you hope I was old enough when Marciano was active? I wasn't even alive in the 50's. Remember with any detail? So... watching the fights on a TV then is somehow more knowledge-producing for the viewer than watching the fights on a TV today?? I don't get what you mean.

Larry Holmes was 48-0 and then lost to Michael Spinks. They had a rematch seven months later and he lost to Spinks again. But good for Larry Holmes. He had a pretty good record for a while, even though he lost 3 fights in his prime years. I'm not even considering his fights from the 90's. You can obviously see that Rocky's 49-0 record is in no way the catalyst in my opinion of him, so I really don't care if Holmes almost matched it once. He still wasn't the hitter, the aggressor, or had the stamina of the Rock.

Correct me if I'm wrong, plaw and my other BB pals, but I DO think that watching tapes is different than watching it when it really occurred. Let me tell you why.

1. Many of the fights they show these days are "best of" fights. So they're only going to show great Marciano fights (or that of any other old boxer). Some of the film they show might only show clips of a fight that make the fighter look like they were always aggressive and never took any punishment.

2. Because you know that Marciano retired 49-0, you might watch these old films with a biased eye. That would be a little different if you were actually alive during the era and watched him not knowing how he would go down in history. Then you can form an opinion as the fighter went along, not 50 years later when everyone is making a fuss.

Float like a butterfly
Sting like a bee
Dons Marco and Corpuzzi
Both agree with me

:p