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NHL-Gone #250807
02/17/05 12:22 PM
02/17/05 12:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
fathersson Offline OP
Underboss
fathersson  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
HNL gives up on season.

I know before everyone says who cares?

Could this be the start of something? The downfall of the whole sport or a new trend in sports in general; someday.

Or will this at least give it an opportunity for reform? Of hockey and or the high price of sports.

Remember, if I heard this right. That this is the first time in North America that a major professional sport has lost an entire season to a labor dispute.


ONLY gun owners have the POWER to PROTECT and PRESERVE our FREEDOM.
"...it is their (the people's) right and duty to be at all times armed" - Thomas Jefferson, June 5, 1824

Everyone should read. "HOW TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD"

CAUTION: This Post has not been approved by Don Cardi.

You really don't expect people to believe your shit do you?

Read: "The Daily Apple"- Telling America and the Gangster BB like it really is!
Re: NHL-Gone #250808
02/17/05 12:32 PM
02/17/05 12:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
Cancerkitty Offline
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Cancerkitty  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
FS - I care.

I think this might be a good thing for the league in the long run, although it's a hell of a shame this year. Maybe they'll get rid of a few of those stupid-ass expansion teams and distribute their talent elsewhere.

I think the players are going to be the big losers here. Next season comes along, if the players don't cave the owners are just going to go get a bunch of scabs like they did in the NFL years back.

If the players do cave and accept the salary caps that are inevitable anyway, maybe that will help slow town skyrocketing ticket prices... but probably not. I've never gotten to go to an NHL game, seats are just too much, especially here in Hockeytown.


DelSquacho.com - All the world loves a clown, but not an evil clown.
Re: NHL-Gone #250809
02/17/05 04:50 PM
02/17/05 04:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
Patrick Offline
Patrick  Offline

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
It took baseball nearly 10 years to resurrect itself after holding out for half of one season. The NHL is missing a whole season and I think it's safe to say is the least watched sport of the major 4 (NBA, NHL, MLB, NFL). It doesn't effect me. NBA could hold out next year, but they're expected to reach an agreement in June. -Pat


"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
Re: NHL-Gone #250810
02/17/05 05:21 PM
02/17/05 05:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
Underboss
JustMe  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
All Europe cares - there's such a brilliant hockey season here because all NHL players returned to play for European teams!


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: NHL-Gone #250811
02/17/05 05:43 PM
02/17/05 05:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
fathersson Offline OP
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fathersson  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,595
Sure, but what about the people "around" the game.
The ushers, arena workers who sell things, officials that work the games and the businesses near the arenas that will be effected.
The old trickle down effect. It hurts the small people who really need the money.


ONLY gun owners have the POWER to PROTECT and PRESERVE our FREEDOM.
"...it is their (the people's) right and duty to be at all times armed" - Thomas Jefferson, June 5, 1824

Everyone should read. "HOW TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD"

CAUTION: This Post has not been approved by Don Cardi.

You really don't expect people to believe your shit do you?

Read: "The Daily Apple"- Telling America and the Gangster BB like it really is!
Re: NHL-Gone #250812
02/17/05 07:20 PM
02/17/05 07:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Elmwood Park, Illinois
YoTonyB Offline
Neighborhood Guy
YoTonyB  Offline
Neighborhood Guy
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Elmwood Park, Illinois
I'm a hockey fan, and I'm fascinated by labor disputes in professional sports. In the States, they're governed by the same laws the cover the traditional trade and industrial unions.

In the U.S., the National Labor Relations Board makes a distinction between offensive and defensive lockouts. This is an important distinction because it determines whether or not the owners are allowed to use substitute players. The NHL owners are using the lockout to pressure the players to accept their (the owners') bargaining position, particularly the right to a salary cap (and at what level to set the cap). That's considered an offensive lockout, and the owners may bring in substitute players as long as there is no evidence of an anti-union motive in their use of the substitute players. There doesn't appear to be an effort by the owners to break the union, only to get them to capitulate to the demand of a salary cap. Both sides have now agreed to a cap, they just haven't agreed on a number.

Will the owners start next season with substitute players if an agreement isn't reached? Hard to say. Now that the season is cancelled, there is no self-imposed deadline to get things done. However, now that the players have actually set a number for a cap, it will be hard to retreat from that position.

I can say with some certainty that the Chicago Blackhawk ownership could probably withstand an indefinite work stoppage in the NHL. The Wirtz family has a number of other business interests that make the hockey team something less than the majority of their holdings.

That may not be true for other franshises and the lockout may eventually take its toll on some franchises. If just one team folds, that's 30 or 35 guys (plus a minor league system!) all competing for jobs with the remaining teams.

Not sure if this is true in Canada, but under U.S. labor law, I believe the NHL players are eligible for unemployment compensation in a "lockout" (but not in a strike).

tony b.


"Kid, these are my f**kin' work clothes."
"You look good in them golf shoes. You should buy 'em"
Re: NHL-Gone #250813
02/17/05 07:30 PM
02/17/05 07:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,190
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Don Jasani Offline
Underboss
Don Jasani  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,190
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
This is a sad time for the NHL and the game of hockey. However, I believe that the owners and the players will be able to work something out before the start of next season. The lockout has done a lot of damage to the game but hockey is a great sport with a rich history and I think it will be able to come back from this.



Re: NHL-Gone #250814
02/17/05 07:33 PM
02/17/05 07:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
It's really a damn shame! All I can say here is that BOTH sides have been greedy not only throughout these negotiations, but throughout the years! And as said above, who really gets hurt are the people that have the jobs in the arenas throughout the season. A damn shame!


Don Cardi



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: NHL-Gone #250815
02/17/05 08:59 PM
02/17/05 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
plawrence Offline
RIP StatMan
plawrence  Offline
RIP StatMan
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
Quote:
Originally posted by YoTonyB:
In the U.S., the National Labor Relations Board makes a distinction between offensive and defensive lockouts.
Hi, YTB....

I have quite a bit of experience in management-labor relations in my own particular business, but I've never seen a distinction made between the two types of lockouts you mention.

I always thought that a lockout was the opposite of a strike. What are the differences between an offensive and defensive lockout?

(Bill James doesn't cover this anywhere )


"Difficult....not impossible"
Re: NHL-Gone #250816
02/17/05 10:53 PM
02/17/05 10:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Elmwood Park, Illinois
YoTonyB Offline
Neighborhood Guy
YoTonyB  Offline
Neighborhood Guy
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Elmwood Park, Illinois
Hey, Plaw!

I was in grad school (Labor and Industrial Relations!) in the mid-'80's shortly after one of the cases on lockouts and temporary replacements was being decided. There was an emphasis in the Labor Law and Dispute Resolution classes to include this material on strikes and lockouts, and that's why I remember it...but only in broad strokes!

The broad strokes that I remember for a defensive lockout relate to a multi-employer bargaining unit in which some employers are struck and the remaining employees are subsequently locked-out. I don't believe that fits the NHL shutdown. The offensive lockout was management's economic tactic similar to a strike. Where the union could strike to apply economic pressure on the owner to settle, the owner could lockout the worker to apply the same economic pressure. That seems to fit the NHL owners' reason for the lockout.

There were specific parameters that had to be met in order for management to have the legal right to hire temporary replacements. I recall the standard for offensive lockouts being the anti-union motive. Since the NHL owners and the Players Association have continued to bargain; have gotten close on a key bargaining point; and appear to be bargaining in good faith, I'd be convinced that the owners don't have an anti-union motive so they are entitled to employ temporary replacements to run their business.

In any event, the distinction between a defensive and offensive lockout was made to determine whether or not the lockout was legal and whether or not the use of replacement workers was legal.

Now I'm gonna have to google for more details and case law...which I should have done before posting!

I greatly admire the work of Marvin Miller in organizing the MLBPA, specifically because of the steps he took to achieve what they achieved. I can talk for a long time on the relationships between Marvin Miller, the Steelworkers Trilogy, the reserve clause, and the arbitrator's decisions that gave Catfish Hunter, Dave McNally, and Andy Messersmith the first shot at baseball's free agent market!

Bill James actually did a nice essay on the viability of replacement players in Major League Baseball. I wish I could remember where I saw it. It had to have been the 1994 baseball strike since he compared the quality of the replacement level baseball player with the quality of the replacement level football player.

tony b.


"Kid, these are my f**kin' work clothes."
"You look good in them golf shoes. You should buy 'em"
Re: NHL-Gone #250817
02/19/05 09:42 PM
02/19/05 09:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,552
Michigan
DonPalentino Offline
Underboss
DonPalentino  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,552
Michigan
This sucks I'll tell ya that much. Hockey is my favorite sport. I've been playing it since I was about ten.

Since Im from Michigan were hockey is very popular, its aweful.

But theres always the Pistons, Tigers(Yes, The Tigers they will be a good team ) and the Lions, if healthy the Lions could do some things to. They have some very good young talent.


Leonard: I dont know. See, I have this condition.
Teddy: Well, I hope its not as serious as his, 'cos this guy's dead.
Re: NHL-Gone #250818
02/20/05 03:23 PM
02/20/05 03:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 45,100
DE NIRO Offline
DE NIRO  Offline

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 45,100
I don't take any interest in NHL,but i feel for the people who do follow the sport.

My fav is Football (soccer that is) and i would be gutted if they cancelled a whole season on my sport.

Keep your heads up and look forward to the next season,or try another sport


The Mafia Is Not Primarily An Organisation Of Murderers.
First And Foremost,The Mafia Is Made Up Of Thieves.
It Is Driven By Greed And Controlled By Fear.

Between The Law And The Mafia, The Law Is Not The Most To Be Feared

"What if the Mafia were not an organization but a widespread Sicilian attitude of hostility towards the law?"

"Make Love Not War" John Lennon
Re: NHL-Gone #250819
02/20/05 03:38 PM
02/20/05 03:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 924
toronto
mr. soprano Offline
Underboss
mr. soprano  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 924
toronto
i'll say this much, i've had two heartbreaks this week, my ex leaving me and hockey being canceled. i don't know which hurts the most. lol


"strange things happen all the time, and so it goes and so it goes. and the book says, 'we may be through with the past, but the past is not through with us'" - MAGNOLIA

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