The United States achieved a great victory in both conflicts in that they helped to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi aggression, and they did the same for the South Koreans.

Seriously Johnny, you keep coming back with these one liners like "Any argument constructed around Palestinians not being human beings is flawed and wrong" and the old "I can list" responses.

But you don't give explainations of why you believe someone's arguement is wrong by providing your own reasons, and you never seem to list the examples that you continually keep claiming to have.

I would really appreciate it if you would provide us with some facts, instead of giving us these generic type responses.

It makes for a much more solid debate.


Don Cardi

Yes Vitelli, I also picked up on that when I read the article.

I don't know. Normal people call their grandmothers to find out how to make certain foods and desserts.

These people call their grandmothers to find out how to make certain bombs and explosives.



Don Cardi

Many of them are not that different from us EXCEPT that they're willing to die for a political belief. This is what I was alluding to earlier.

Much like we had to learn to deal with the Japanese suicide bombers in WWII we must learn to deal with these fanatics today in the Middle East. We're fighting a different kind of enemy now; one that can't be identified by a uniform. To understand them is the first step in helping to defeat them.

.

Mad Johnny,

If (and this is an "if") you are referring to the "flood" of European Jews into Israel as the pilgrimage that many Jews made after the Holocaust, I find your characterization of this as rather an unusual one. These European Jews were the too few survivors of an incredible and unbelievable genocide who found their previous homeland's to be a vast cemetery, their families massacred. They ran blockades and surmounted incredible hurdles in order to return to what they considered their promised land.

While there are many who have issues with the way that the UN sanctioned the country of Israel, and have issues with the US support of this country, how can you equate one with the other?

Are their madmen in any culture? I believe that the likes of Tim McVeigh, Charles Whitman and Dylan Klebold have taught us that there are. However, by and large, the US as a country and Americans as a culture, do not indoctrinate children into believing that they will only achieve honor for themselves and their families by slaughtering anyone who does not share their beliefs, that "infidels" (translation: anyone who thinks differently than you) are the enemy and that no possible tolerance of a different way of life, culture or set of beliefs is allowed.

So the destruction of their homes in Europe gave them the right to take another people's land? That does not make sense.

DC, the point is I should not have to go into such things. Because by not acknowledging Palestinians are humans, you have a flawed argument. There is no way around that. You're trying to change what they are in order to fit your ideas and that's wrong.

Great success in Korea? What!? That was a horrid war that has not ended and right now the situation is the same as it was before the war. It is not a great success.

Desert Storm a great success? Nope, it took a second invasion to try and right that mess and that only turned into a bigger fiasco.

My replies are not "generic" and I do answer any challenges to my points. I guess I just assume too much prior knowledge here in this case.

I think that you have it backwards. It is they who are trying to change what others believe to fit their own ideas, and that is why they carry out the acts that they do. They have and continue to try to force their ideas and beliefs on others by using acts of violence and by murdering innocent children and civilians.

Where have I 'forced' my ideas and beliefs on anyone? All I've tried to advocate here is that these people need to cease the hatred, the killing and the violence if they ever want to be heard and listened to.

If you act like an animal, you will be treated as one. If you act like a civilized human being, then you'll be heard.

We can go back and forth all day long if we want. However it is quite obvious that you will continue to believe that they are justified in what they do, and that I will never be convinced that they are.


Now as for your statement about Kuwait, again, I think that you have your facts mixed up on that one. Perhaps you should go back and re-read your notes.


Don Cardi

It has nothing whatsoever to do with being 'wired straight'.

It has to do with a teaching, a belief, an attitude toward another group of people that's instilled into your head from the day you are born.

That's why they feel she's 'brought great honor to the homeland'...and the sooner we strategize with that in mind, the better.

Apple

ps - Mad Johnny is correct about one thing, and one thing only...the Korean War. It never ended and there was NO U.S. success. A treaty is all there has been to keep another bullet from being fired over the past 50+ years.

Yes, it is something that is instilled and inbreaded in these people from birth. But that doesn't mean that they are normal or that their teachings should be accepted or tolerated. It doesn't mean that they are wired straight either.


Although you and Johnny do not see our intervention in the Korean War as a success on our part, I do. The South Koreans were not conquered by the North. The spread of communism was halted because of our support and South Korea transformed itself into a democracy with a free-market economy. In the end it turned out to be a successful defense of South Korea's territory.

I don't view that as failing on our part. And neither would those veterans who fought in that war.

Don Cardi

Please explain.



Don Cardi

Mad:

You do neeeeed!!! to check your history. Indigenous? Once again (in case you forgot) Mohammed was a bedouin from the Arabian peninsula who owed his allegiance to an arabian clan. His followers came from the same place. The Seljuks in the tenth century were nomads from asia. Salad ed Din in the twelth century was a Kurd. The Mameluks in the thirteenth century were from southern Russia.

What peoples is it exactly that you are maintaining are indigenous to Palestine which, by the way, was the Roman name for most of the middle east which included Syria as a major province and Judea as only part of that province? That's why Judea was ruled by a procurator and not a Governor as Syria was. Who was it that Pompey attacked in 60 BC and who was it that routed the Roman forces under Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. Were the Romans attacking Palestinians or Jews or Israelites, or Israelis? It probably didn'tr matter to the romans what they called themselves. But it's recorded that they called themselves Jews and they defended their peoles, their homeland, their Temple, and their religious practices. Again, who's indigenous?

DC, you tried to hack what I stated. You, and this is fact, are trying to change Palestinians from humans to less than human. You called them "barbarians." In fact, they are humans. Logically, because they are humans, you're argument falls apart because it is based on them being non-human.

I never ever stated that they are right in what they are doing. Again, this is an attempt on your part to intentionally misintepret me.

Ever think that the ideas you are promoting were "instilled and inbreaded" in you from birth?

Let's just have all the Irish Catholics in America go back to Ireland and take it over, set up a new government and oppress the local people.

According to you, no one is indigenous.

Just because the founder of Islam is from another area, it does not make Palestinians foreigners. You're basing nationality on religion.

Ok, so I'll call it "the Levant" from now on instead of "Palestine."

People living in a Roman territory weren't all Roman citizens. The people living in that area are Semites. Just because some Semites are Muslims does not make them foreigners. Semitic Jews were expelled from the area. Those that were non-Jewish were allowed to stay.

Let's see now. Yes, some of what I believe in was probably instilled in me at birth. I would like to think that what was instilled in me at birth was the fact that I was taught that I should respect other human life. Is this what's been instilled in the mind of a suicide bomber? Which would YOU rather instill in your child?


And please Johnny, stop taking everything so personally! I never attempted to INTENTIONALY misinterpret you. Sometimes people can misunderstand something that you are trying to say. It's not always a case of intentional misinterpretation.

NO WHERE have I ever advocated that those people should NOT believe in the religion that they practice but instead should believe in mine. You're twisting words here Johnny. Intentional?


Don Cardi

And I never said you did advocate that So who's twisting now?

My point about what someone learns from birth depends on where that person is. In America, and I'm not saying you personally, there is a natural tendency to dislike Islam that is drilled from birth. The same thing the other way around happens there.

MJ
IMHO I seriously doubt that all American's instill in our children to hate Islam from birth. I know I wasn't brought up to hate like that.

Just like it is for Cardi, it's a challenge for me to follow your logic, your arguments. One of them is that the Jews invaded Palestine and stole it from the indigenous peoples. Again, who do you define as indigenous? Also, you seem to be basing this one of your arguments on a pedantic temporal period that's not much more than the past half century.

[quote=Don Cardi...NO WHERE have I ever advocated that those people should NOT believe in the religion that they practice but instead should believe in mine...[/quote]

No. But you're calling them & their teachings 'not normal'.

While I agree with you that the beliefs should be neither tolerated nor accepted, this stuff is quite 'normal' to them.
Because it is apparently all they know.

While keeping South Korea free was technically a 'success', then there was success for the other side as well. The U.S. did not 'win' that war. As MJ states...it has never ended therefore has no winner.

Apple

We can claim bias against Islam, we can argue that "not wired straight" is different from hearing a certain doctrine over and over and over since infancy, we can argue that the long arm of the American military has added insult to the injuries that some people feel has been perpetrated, we can argue that some believe that these acts of violence are performed by barbarians that are less than human. One thing is very clear to me. Anyone who straps on explosives and blows themselves up in a purposeful attempt to take as many innocent lives with them as possible is not humane. And there is no justification for it, IMO.

Care to provide us with some fact to back up that kind of a claim? Personally I think that your statement is outrageous. Not saying that there aren't scattered cases of that going on here in the U.S., but you make it sound as though it is a cultural thing within the U.S.

I am also waiting for an answer to this question that I posted to you earlier : Which would YOU rather instill in your child?



WRONG! North Korea along with soviet backing planned on conquering South Korea to convert them to communism. They did NOT succeed in doing that.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED By South Korea and the United States!

Therefore the misson of the North Koreans, "the other side," was NOT a success as you claim it was. It was not a matter of winning a war on the part of the U.S. It was a matter of stopping North Korea and it's communist ways from overtaking the South and converting it to communism. A way for the USA to stop the spreading and threat of communism.



Don Cardi

Now you're talkin!!!

Although I can't think of an instance where these people nor anyone else has considered it 'humane' behavior...since their purpose IS to take lives in a violent manner, and cause others to suffer horribly.

And of course there is 'no justification for it' in your opinion nor mine. But there IS justification for it in theirs. As stated, they feel it 'honors the homeland'.

Which again brings up the profound statement:
"The sooner our leaders here in the U.S. realize that, the sooner we'll be better to deal with the situation over there."

Apple

ps - So glad to know that we 'can argue' here on the BB! It's something no one has tried before!!!

Well said SB. Well said.


Don Cardi

You've definitely over simplified the Korean conflict, DC.

I've pointed out that Palestinians are more indigenous than those who came from Europe after WWII.



Surely you calling them "barbarians" is proof of my assertion. Also, how about the crack downs and discrimination targeted at Muslims after 9/11? That was pretty apparent. How about those Muslim men who were kicked off a plane just recently because some little girl was scared of them?

Show me proof the the domino theory is actually real, DC. Also, China was the major backer of Korea, not the Soviets. The Russians supplied planes and pilots and little else.

Who's arguing? I don't sense any hostility in SB's post, and I know that there isn't any in my posts. As far as I am concerned, we're having a discussion.


Don Cardi

Maybe we should have a separate Korean war/communism thread to keep the focus clear?

Don't you get board of talking about the same thing all the time. War,War,War...

Not true.

Though I'm sure you would like to believe that as a justification for your 'understanding them' and 'seeing their side of it' mantra.

Apple

ps - Just curious since it was mentioned earlier in the thread. (And not necessarily for Mad J to answer.) Why is it that YOU have returned from 'Thanksgiving exile' and Double-J is, in your words, 'gone'.

Actually the survivors of the holocaust were only a small fraction of the total number of Jews that left Europe for Israel. Germany started exporting Jews in the 1930's as a peaceful means of relieving the tension. Often times at the request of the respective Jew. It was working well until world warII started, then the program as well as Jewish relations in Europe were officially done for.

In the general sense. Not necessarily referencing this thread.

Apple

Yes, China was the major backer of North Korea. They were the Tattaglias of the war. Russia provided combat advisors, military pilots and weapons. They were the Barzini's of the war.


Still waiting for an answer to my original question to you.


Don Cardi

I'm just trying to push the opposite side of the argument because there is truth on both sides. I'm not Palestinian so I don't know exactly how they feel.

DJ is gone, sadly