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Re: for scholars only
[Re: Don Cardi]
#381036
04/02/07 10:24 AM
04/02/07 10:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
donjack
OP
Wiseguy
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OP
Wiseguy
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
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Exactly. And the key part of Roth's reply
"I didn't ask who gave the order -- because it had nothing to do with business!"
translated into his telling Michael not to ask him who ordered the hit on Pentangeli. He was letting Michael know that he knew that Michael ordered the hit on Moe Green but never questioned him on it and therefore Michael knowing that Roth ordered the hit on Frankie should not be questioning him about it because it was strictly business.
But who's to say it was Roth maybe Roth was giving Michael some emotional advice. I mean how on earth does Hyman know that Michael had Moe Green killed.
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Re: for scholars only
[Re: olivant]
#381103
04/02/07 01:28 PM
04/02/07 01:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
donjack
OP
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
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Frankie was not smart enough (as he admitted himself) to plan such a move. michael knew it was Roth and he had a plan to deal with it. He knew that Frankie's actions could derail his plan, so he imposed constraints on Frankie and required him to work out a deal with the Rosatos. I know it was Roth who tried to have Michael killed.
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Re: for scholars only
[Re: donjack]
#381269
04/03/07 12:34 AM
04/03/07 12:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,611
AZ
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Within minutes of the Tahoe attack, Michael was almost certain that Roth was behind the attempt. I believe he saw that Roth had set it up so that Frankie would look like the patsy. Frankie came to the party sore at Michael for supporting Roth and the Rosatos against Frankie. Therefore, Frankie had the "perfect" motivation to whack Michael--and would make the perfect fall guy. But Michael saw that the plan was too obvious, too pat. Frankie wasn't smart enough to plan the hit, much less smart enough to take over the Corleone empire. So Michael put his "Sicilian cunning" to work. Michael had been horning in on Roth's Western gaming empire since he returned from Sicily. He realized that Roth had been stringing him along by pretending that Michael was his heir-apparent; by doling out little pieces of his empire (like Klingman's share of the Tropigala), and by promising Michael his Cuban interests. Now Michael saw that Roth, not Frankie, had the most to gain from whacking Michael: rid himself of Michael's constant encroachments, take over Michael's Nevada gaming interests, and, by making Frankie the fall guy, turning him into a hunted man--so that the Rosatos, who were loyal to Roth, could take over the Corleone interests in NYC. I said that Michael was almost certain it was Roth. The clincher: when he visited Frankie, he made it look like he blamed Frankie--and Frankie was turned into jelly by Michael's anger. But when Michael said he wanted Frankie to help him "take my revenge" on Roth, Frankie practically passed out with relief. Sure enough, Frankie said, "Michael, anything..." That's when Frankie passed the test. Then Michael, in one of his most brilliant manipulative moves, said, "Settle these problems with the Rosato brothers." In effect, he told Frankie to take a mortal risk that he wasn't willing to take before Michael's visit. Now he couldn't lose: If Frankie did settle his problems with the Rosatos, it'd be one less worry for Michael. If Roth had the Rosatos whack Frankie, it'd be one more proof that Roth was behind the hit. This is a very long way of saying that Michael at no time suspected Frankie in the Tahoe attempt.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: for scholars only
[Re: Don Cardi]
#381501
04/03/07 04:26 PM
04/03/07 04:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Exactly. And the key part of Roth's reply
"I didn't ask who gave the order -- because it had nothing to do with business!"
translated into his telling Michael not to ask him who ordered the hit on Pentangeli. He was letting Michael know that he knew that Michael ordered the hit on Moe Green but never questioned him on it and therefore Michael knowing that Roth ordered the hit on Frankie should not be questioning him about it because it was strictly business.
This scene between Roth and Michael is one of the greatest scenes in all three GF films. There's a lot going on that is unsaid, but which is determined by a careful viewing of it. Basically at this stage of the game IMHO Roth knows that Michael knows that it was Roth who tried to kill him, and he also knows that Michael has to be very careful how he handles this information. Of course he also knows he can still play the Pentangeli card and move Michael out if his assassination plan fails. By the time Roth made the Moe Greene comments to Michael it was pretty much common knowledge that Micheal gave the order to Kill all the heads of the five families and Moe. Michael had tried to move in on Moe's casino in GF I and Moe refused, and justified his slapping Fredo around. Since a refusal isnt the act of a friend, Michael had the right to move Moe out any way he saw fit. Roth knew that was the business they had chosen, so he let it go. Still Roth is showing rage that Michael killed Roth and he shows great grief at the loss of his protogee. It is a great piece if acting BTW by Lee Strassberg (who in real life was one of Pacino's mentors). Roth is probably also pissed that he like everyone else had underestimated Michael, and IMHO the killing of Moe Green was probably the seed of Roth's long term plan to get rid of Michael. But Roth keeps it all about this one deal by telling Michael he wouldnt want it getting around that Michael was bailing on this deal (a veiled threat) which Michael parries by asking almost rhetorically "who gave the Oder to kill Frank Pentangeli ... I know I didn't." Roth, then brilliantly explodes at Michael about Moe --- which is also a parry because Roth knows Pentangeli is still alive -- so Roth threatens him once more when he says he is going to go take a nap, and when he wakes up if the money is on the table he has a partner and if it isnt he knows he doesnt have one (in other words by the rules of the game Roth would have been within his rights to kill Michael). Of course by that point Michael was ahead of the game in Cuba cause he'd already made arrangements to get out and Kill Roth. Of course Roth survived and then Roth went to Plan B, which almost brought Michael down. I think thats what Hagen means by his statement that "Roth really played this beautiffuly."
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: for scholars only
[Re: dontomasso]
#381527
04/03/07 07:07 PM
04/03/07 07:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Outstanding synopsis Don T! It is a great piece if acting BTW by Lee Strassberg (who in real life was one of Pacino's mentors). A little bit of trivia about that. Lee Strasberg was, as you said, a mentor to Pacino. I believe that Pacino attended Strasberg's school of acting which is now known as The Actor's Studio. When Pacino agreed to make GFII, he supposedly was the one who felt that Strasberg would be the perfect one to play Hyman Roth. At that time Strasberg was not very fond of doing movies and favored teaching, writing and the live stage instead. I think that it was something like ten years that Strasberg had not made a movie before doing GFII. It was Pacino who finally talked Strasberg into taking the part of Roth, and from there Strasberg wound up doing several movies over the next few years. Strasberg also went on to act with Pacino once again in And Justice For All. I believe he played the part of Pacino's grandfather. I've always found it pretty ironic that the student wound up being the one to talk the mentor into taking a role in a movie.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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