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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: ScarFather]
#414180
07/12/07 01:00 PM
07/12/07 01:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 246 NY
Buttmunker
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 246
NY
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If you watch Michael watching Sonny(and Tom) in action... to me he is observing a man... acting as Don as a "rudderless ship"(someone else's descriptor of Sonny's donship on this board)
I think Michael became VERY "concerned" when he tells Sonny "he's my father too, I want to stay" at the Tom and Sonny meeting.
Michael had just gotten in from hearing his father had been shot, so he was concerned over his father and over what his brother was planning to do. True, he disapproved of Santino's "hit list," saying that's not the way Pop would play it, etc. But, in times like that, times of great stress, its hard to know the right answer. Santino was enraged that his father would be hit; Michael's reaction was slow and steady wins the race. Michael thought Santino was wrong, but was he really? We all know that Michael himself was not a good Don (lacking humility and heart), so what makes Michael a judge over Santino?
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: Buttmunker]
#414195
07/12/07 01:36 PM
07/12/07 01:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
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If you watch Michael watching Sonny(and Tom) in action... to me he is observing a man... acting as Don as a "rudderless ship"(someone else's descriptor of Sonny's donship on this board)
I think Michael became VERY "concerned" when he tells Sonny "he's my father too, I want to stay" at the Tom and Sonny meeting.
Michael had just gotten in from hearing his father had been shot, so he was concerned over his father and over what his brother was planning to do. True, he disapproved of Santino's "hit list," saying that's not the way Pop would play it, etc. But, in times like that, times of great stress, its hard to know the right answer. Santino was enraged that his father would be hit; Michael's reaction was slow and steady wins the race. Michael thought Santino was wrong, but was he really? We all know that Michael himself was not a good Don (lacking humility and heart), so what makes Michael a judge over Santino? "We all know".... LOL Debatable. He was a Great Don. We have the luxury of hindsite and ALL knowledge of ALL situations. He didnt. There is not one move that I would question or do differently. He wasnt the greatest husband, father. Buts thats not a Don issue. As far as "humility and hear"... well... different times called for different measures... he wasnt like his father in many ways because it was dangerous to be like his father... obviously his father's way of doing things was over.
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: Buttmunker]
#414241
07/12/07 02:24 PM
07/12/07 02:24 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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If you watch Michael watching Sonny(and Tom) in action... to me he is observing a man... acting as Don as a "rudderless ship"(someone else's descriptor of Sonny's donship on this board)
I think Michael became VERY "concerned" when he tells Sonny "he's my father too, I want to stay" at the Tom and Sonny meeting.
Michael had just gotten in from hearing his father had been shot, so he was concerned over his father and over what his brother was planning to do. True, he disapproved of Santino's "hit list," saying that's not the way Pop would play it, etc. But, in times like that, times of great stress, its hard to know the right answer. Santino was enraged that his father would be hit; Michael's reaction was slow and steady wins the race. Michael thought Santino was wrong, but was he really? We all know that Michael himself was not a good Don (lacking humility and heart), so what makes Michael a judge over Santino? True, in the deleted scene he counsels Sonny to wait and consult with Vito. But after the hospital he changes his tune fast. Michael realizes that Santino was not wrong at all. He sides with Sonny over Tom by supporting (and committing) Sollozzo's murder. Michael and Sonny are more alike than most realize. Michael's thinking is every bit as aggressive as Sonny's, but Michael adds a cerebral, strategic dimension that Sonny lacks. I don't consider Michael "slow and steady" at all. He moves boldly and forcefully once he has identified a goal or an enemy.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#414243
07/12/07 02:27 PM
07/12/07 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 246 NY
Buttmunker
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 246
NY
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I don't consider Michael "slow and steady" at all. He moves boldly and forcefully once he has identified a goal or an enemy.
... But I'm going to wait, til after the Baptism...Michael plans, and allows his enemies to get comfortable before striking. He allowed Carlo to live in the mall, all the while knowing he was going to kill him.
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: Buttmunker]
#414255
07/12/07 03:03 PM
07/12/07 03:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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We all know that Michael himself was not a good Don (lacking humility and heart), so what makes Michael a judge over Santino?
At that point Michael was acting reasonably, thinking things out, not acting or making decisions out of haste. It is at that point that we see that Michael is the son most like his father. It was not that Michael was a bad Don in the sense that he could not run the family and bring them to power. He was an excellent Don in doing what he did for The Family. He became a bad Don in the sense that in re-building the Corelone reputation and bringing The Family to greater things, he sacrificed his family for the sake of The Family. He lost sight of what was really important in life. His ego and lust for control and power blinded him to what he was doing to his blood family. That's what made him a bad Don compared to his father. Not what he did for The Family, but what he did to his family. Sonny on the other hand was a good wartime, street savy tactioner. A wartime strategist. Sonny could run a war with the best of them. Sollozo and Tattaglia knew this and that is one of the reasons that they kidnapped Tom and told him that he'd BETTER convince Sonny to make peace and make the deal. But they also knew that if they played their cards right, and Tom was not able to convince Sonny to make the peace, that eventually Sonny's temper would make him slip up and give them an opportunity to make their move against him. And that's exactly what happened. Sonny was a bad Don in the sense that he could not reason and would let his temper cloud his judgement. Sonny was not a negotiator. Michael, much like his father, was. And there is a time in every war for street fighting and then negotiation. Michael had the ability to differentiate when to war, and when to negotiate. Sonny on the other hand did not have that ability to differentiate when to war and when to negotiate. Michael was a much better Don because he did not act in haste, made calculated and well thought out decisions, and used reason instead of letting his temper cloud his judgement. Sonny on the other hand did not have that ability.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#414257
07/12/07 03:08 PM
07/12/07 03:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
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True, in the deleted scene he counsels Sonny to wait and consult with Vito. But after the hospital he changes his tune fast. Michael realizes that Santino was not wrong at all. He sides with Sonny over Tom by supporting (and committing) Sollozzo's murder.
Michael and Sonny are more alike than most realize. Michael's thinking is every bit as aggressive as Sonny's, but Michael adds a cerebral, strategic dimension that Sonny lacks.
I don't consider Michael "slow and steady" at all. He moves boldly and forcefully once he has identified a goal or an enemy.
Never said Sonny was wrong. Never said Sonny and Michael werent alike in their thinking. I am saying that Sonny didnt have the Don-like skills to pull it off. Women and children can be careless... Don's cant. 
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414261
07/12/07 03:12 PM
07/12/07 03:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
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We all know that Michael himself was not a good Don (lacking humility and heart), so what makes Michael a judge over Santino?
At that point Michael was acting reasonably, thinking things out, not acting or making decisions out of haste. It is at that point that we see that Michael is the son most like his father. It was not that Michael was a bad Don in the sense that he could not run the family and bring them to power. He was an excellent Don in doing what he did for The Family. He became a bad Don in the sense that in re-building the Corelone reputation and bringing The Family to greater things, he sacrificed his family for the sake of The Family. He lost sight of what was really important in life. His ego and lust for control and power blinded him to what he was doing to his blood family. That's what made him a bad Don compared to his father. Not what he did for The Family, but what he did to his family. Sonny on the other hand was a good wartime, street savy tactioner. A wartime strategist. Sonny could run a war with the best of them. Sollozo and Tattaglia knew this and that is one of the reasons that they kidnapped Tom and told him that he'd BETTER convince Sonny to make peace and make the deal. But they also knew that if they played their cards right, and Tom was not able to convince Sonny to make the peace, that eventually Sonny's temper would make him slip up and give them an opportunity to make their move against him. And that's exactly what happened. Sonny was a bad Don in the sense that he could not reason and would let his temper cloud his judgement. Sonny was not a negotiator. Michael, much like his father, was. And there is a time in every war for street fighting and then negotiation. Michael had the ability to differentiate when to war, and when to negotiate. Sonny on the other hand did not have that ability to differentiate when to war and when to negotiate. Michael was a much better Don because he did not act in haste, made calculated and well thought out decisions, and used reason instead of letting his temper cloud his judgement. Sonny on the other hand did not have that ability. Great post. Question: I think Michael ever had to "think or plan" anything for a war... he never went to war... he wiped everyone out before it got to war, right? or is there time he was at war?
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414262
07/12/07 03:14 PM
07/12/07 03:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
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I am saying that Sonny didnt have the Don-like skills to pull it off. Women and children can be careless... Don's cant. Read my post above. LOL... probably was posting when you sent this
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: lucylu]
#414271
07/12/07 03:32 PM
07/12/07 03:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Most Impactful Scene
[Re: pizzaboy]
#414347
07/12/07 04:57 PM
07/12/07 04:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
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What are you confused about, DC? It makes as much sense as some of the OTHER posts today. Are we discussing the godfather or what? Childish name calling and such. Unreal. Just ask yourself. Everything you say and do on a bulletin board... would you say and do the same thing if you met the person? Its rhetorical. You know your real answer. Go with that.
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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