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Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
#414267
07/12/07 03:24 PM
07/12/07 03:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
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Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack... Tom explains to Vito.
Ok... Sonny gets whacked. Tom tells Vito. Michael is brought bad news in Italy.
So... I assume at some point Vito asks Tom "what happened and how" Tom says "Sonny was called about another Connie beatdown and he stormed out of house" THEN he was ambushed.
Vito is thinking??? Carlo? right away?
Michael talks to Vito months later? Vito tells Michael about Carlo and his "farse"?? Michael figures it out? Vito and Michael figure it out? ??
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414273
07/12/07 03:35 PM
07/12/07 03:35 PM
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Posts: 295
ScarFather
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Tom knew right away. He was the first one to suspect Carlo. The book goes a bit deeper into this situation regarding Tom getting the news and then calling up Carlo about it. Tom was an excellent consigliere in that situation because he took control of the whole situation before it got worse. His phone conversation with Carlo kept things in check. Can you please "amplify" your answer? Expand on it? Thank you
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: dontomasso]
#414276
07/12/07 03:40 PM
07/12/07 03:40 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
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I wonder if Michael and Vito paid too high a price in announcing that Carlo would be Michael's "right hand man" in Vegas. Surely Tessio and Clemenza also knew it was Carlo who set Sonny up, and I also know Michael was keeping Carlo "closer" and also trying to appear weak. But still to Tessio and Clemenza such a clearly boneheaded move would indicate the family was coming off the tracks, and thus the "smart thing to do" would be to betray the family. Why then did Michael have to go out of his way to promote Carlo? Couldn't they have kept him in check some other way? Perhaps a private meeting with Hagen who promises him something important after the baptism? I remember someone posting on the boards a little while back that Vito and Michael wanted it to look like the family "was coming off the tracks" to test the loyalty of Tess & Clem
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414284
07/12/07 03:49 PM
07/12/07 03:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
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Tom called Carlo a few minutes after learning about Sonny's death before even telling anyone else in the family.
What he did in that conversation was to let Carlo know that he was, as the novel says, "a hair away from death." Yet he did so without uttering a threat to Carlo. Instead he almost made Carlo feel that he would protect him and make things straight with the others on his behalf. He got the message across to Carlo and in a sense took control over Carlo, so as to keep him in check. Wow... sounds weak... glad they left it out. Maybe it reads better(in full).
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: dontomasso]
#414299
07/12/07 03:57 PM
07/12/07 03:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
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I wonder if Michael and Vito paid too high a price in announcing that Carlo would be Michael's "right hand man" in Vegas. Surely Tessio and Clemenza also knew it was Carlo who set Sonny up, and I also know Michael was keeping Carlo "closer" and also trying to appear weak. But still to Tessio and Clemenza such a clearly boneheaded move would indicate the family was coming off the tracks, and thus the "smart thing to do" would be to betray the family. Why then did Michael have to go out of his way to promote Carlo? Couldn't they have kept him in check some other way? Perhaps a private meeting with Hagen who promises him something important after the baptism? I beleive that announcement of Carlo being Michael's right hand man had a triple purpose to it. As you said, it made Carlo feel more comfortable and removed any fears that he may have had about losing his life. It served as a test of loyalty for both Tessio, Clemenza and their men. And I'm sure that once Carlo was told this news, he was on the phone with Barzini's people telling them that he was "now on the inside" and could be more useful. It was Michael and Vito's way of getting word, through Carlo, to their enemies, that the Caporegimes were not happy. That Tessio was losing faith in The Family. There is no doubt in my mind that Carlo was still working with Barzini's people and that he delivered this news to them. And there was no doubt in Michael's mind either that Carlo was still working with Barzini or Tattaglia and would deliver this news to them.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: ScarFather]
#414301
07/12/07 04:00 PM
07/12/07 04:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Posts: 18,238
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Tom called Carlo a few minutes after learning about Sonny's death before even telling anyone else in the family.
What he did in that conversation was to let Carlo know that he was, as the novel says, "a hair away from death." Yet he did so without uttering a threat to Carlo. Instead he almost made Carlo feel that he would protect him and make things straight with the others on his behalf. He got the message across to Carlo and in a sense took control over Carlo, so as to keep him in check. Wow... sounds weak... glad they left it out. Maybe it reads better(in full). Sounds weak?  If anything it gives you a much better understanding as to how Tom took control and handled the Carlo situation and that Tom was the one who knew that Carlo had set up Sonny. Perhaps you need to read the book. 
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414303
07/12/07 04:01 PM
07/12/07 04:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
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Its confusing. Tom alerted Carlo that he was almost a dead man.... then Michael promotes him?
Throw a red flag up for anyone? uh, like Carlo??
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414305
07/12/07 04:03 PM
07/12/07 04:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
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Tom called Carlo a few minutes after learning about Sonny's death before even telling anyone else in the family.
What he did in that conversation was to let Carlo know that he was, as the novel says, "a hair away from death." Yet he did so without uttering a threat to Carlo. Instead he almost made Carlo feel that he would protect him and make things straight with the others on his behalf. He got the message across to Carlo and in a sense took control over Carlo, so as to keep him in check. Wow... sounds weak... glad they left it out. Maybe it reads better(in full). Sounds weak?  If anything it gives you a much better understanding as to how Tom took control and handled the Carlo situation and that Tom was the one who knew that Carlo had set up Sonny. Perhaps you need to read the book. I am going to read the book... per the gbb'ers advice... but still sound weak... Tom knows that Carlo help set up Sonny and had him killed... how did he handle situation with phone call?
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: ScarFather]
#414309
07/12/07 04:04 PM
07/12/07 04:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
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Its confusing. Tom alerted Carlo that he was almost a dead man.... then Michael promotes him?
Throw a red flag up for anyone? uh, like Carlo?? Scarfather, Don Cardi hardly needs my intervention, he's one of the most Godfather savvy people I've ever known, but I really think you NEED TO read the book. Please don't take this the wrong way, you seem like a nice guy and a huge fan of the trilogy. It's just that by not reading the book you're cheating yourself. PB
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414316
07/12/07 04:06 PM
07/12/07 04:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

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It's not confusing. GO back and re-read the above posts and read the book. Read slow. Mouth the words if you have to.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: pizzaboy]
#414317
07/12/07 04:13 PM
07/12/07 04:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
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Its confusing. Tom alerted Carlo that he was almost a dead man.... then Michael promotes him?
Throw a red flag up for anyone? uh, like Carlo?? Scarfather, Don Cardi hardly needs my intervention, he's one of the most Godfather savvy people I've ever known, but I really think you NEED TO read the book. Please don't take this the wrong way, you seem like a nice guy and a huge fan of the trilogy. It's just that by not reading the book you're cheating yourself. PB  LMAO....(I am laughing so hard that my eyes are tearing up)- I dont take the responses of... "go read the book" or "search for this and that" the wrong way.... I just enjoy talking about it on a bulletin board. I have searched for other godfather forums... this one is tops... promoting chat/debate = a good thing, no? As for Don Cardi being one of the most GF Savy people.... GREAT... thats why I am asking!!!!!!!!! 
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414320
07/12/07 04:26 PM
07/12/07 04:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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There is no question that you've brought up a good question that has provoked some really enjoyable debate. And I don't mind at all trying to answer your questions. In fact I enjoy it. But you have this habit of making these quick replies that translate to me that you sometimes do not read the posts being made, trying to answer your questions, before posting your replies! R-E-A-D S-L-O-W-L-Y Like this: "Don Corleone, I am honored and grateful....Don Corleone...Don Corleone."
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: ScarFather]
#414325
07/12/07 04:37 PM
07/12/07 04:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Its confusing. Tom alerted Carlo that he was almost a dead man.... then Michael promotes him?
Throw a red flag up for anyone? uh, like Carlo?? Scarfather, Don Cardi hardly needs my intervention, he's one of the most Godfather savvy people I've ever known, but I really think you NEED TO read the book. Please don't take this the wrong way, you seem like a nice guy and a huge fan of the trilogy. It's just that by not reading the book you're cheating yourself. PB  LMAO....(I am laughing so hard that my eyes are tearing up)- I dont take the responses of... "go read the book" or "search for this and that" the wrong way.... I just enjoy talking about it on a bulletin board. I have searched for other godfather forums... this one is tops... promoting chat/debate = a good thing, no? As for Don Cardi being one of the most GF Savy people.... GREAT... thats why I am asking!!!!!!!!! Scarfather, Scarfather, what did any one here do to earn such disrespect. You come to the boards on the day we should all be working and you dont think to ask for friendship. I can't remember the last time you invited anyone for coffee, even though we have been here longer. 
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414345
07/12/07 04:53 PM
07/12/07 04:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 295
ScarFather
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There is no question that you've brought up a good question that has provoked some really enjoyable debate. And I don't mind at all trying to answer your questions. In fact I enjoy it. But you have this habit of making these quick replies that translate to me that you sometimes do not read the posts being made, trying to answer your questions, before posting your replies! Actually DC... I did read the whole response post from you. My question still is: How does Tom calling Carlo get control of the situation? What did Tom do or say that was so great? I should take a page out of Michael's book and have the heads of the 5 families on this board whacked  Err... that was a joke... Oh.... it seems to be common practice to make fun of posters for questioning contents of posts or threads?... Lets just say... if posters(that have been here longer) are prepared to dish it out.. they should be prepared to get it back.
"What I want.... whats most important to me... is that I have a guarantee" - Train approaches.... Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Ice]
#414460
07/12/07 09:47 PM
07/12/07 09:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
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If anything it gives you a much better understanding as to how Tom took control and handled the Carlo situation and that Tom was the one who knew that Carlo had set up Sonny. So..would Vito have figured all of this out w/o the help of Tom?  Is Tom's insight the reason that the Don knew that 'It was Barzini all along."  Vito would have surely figured this out w/o the help of Tom...right? I believe that Vito would have figured it all out without the help of Tom. My point to Scarfather was that Tom was smart enough to figure it out himself first and take the proper steps to insure that Carlo felt safe and protected by him. He needed to keep Carlo in check so that he could protect Connie by having Carlo confident enough to move her into the mall. With Santino now gone and Tom the Consigliere, he had to secure the safety of Connie and at the same time prevent Carlo from doing something else that could possibly hurt the family in one way or another. He took care of this before he went to inform the Don about Sonny's death. Bottom line is that Tom really was the first one to figure out that it was Carlo who set Santino up for the hit. Doesn't mean that Vito wouldn't have figured this out on his own, but I was just answering Scarfather's original question. Of course it was NOT Tom's insight that made the Don know that it was Barzini all along. It's the opposite because Tom says to him "you mean Tattaglia." Remember? 
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: Don Cardi]
#414519
07/13/07 03:51 AM
07/13/07 03:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
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AZ
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DC answered this question definitively. By seeming to give Carlo a pass, and even promoting him to "right hand man in Nevada," Vito and later Michael were practicing the time-honored strategy of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer." Of course they (and Tom) knew that Carlo was involved (at the minimum) in Sonny's assassination. Perhaps (as has been posted in earlier threads on this subject) Vito couldn't bring himself to order the death of his daughter's husband and his grandchild's father. But Michael was signaling Tessio, Clemenza--and especially Barzini--that he was either too dumb to figure out that Carlo was the culprit, or too weak to act--or both. It was, as DC said, a test of loyalty to T&C, and a way to keep Barzini relaxed--and off guard.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Vito and Michael conversation post Santino whack..
[Re: ScarFather]
#414570
07/13/07 09:37 AM
07/13/07 09:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
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If anything it gives you a much better understanding as to how Tom took control and handled the Carlo situation and that Tom was the one who knew that Carlo had set up Sonny. So..would Vito have figured all of this out w/o the help of Tom?  Is Tom's insight the reason that the Don knew that 'It was Barzini all along." Vito would have surely figured this out w/o the help of Tom...right? There you go.. .asking more questions.... dont you know that the existing, long time members of this board dont like that? They actually would rather tell you where to find the info or make fun of you than talk about it. Get with the program will you. Scarfather, Go to your room!!
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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