Sollozzo waited four months after Sonny’s gaffe at the drugs meeting to make his attempt on Vito. Why did he wait that long? The answer, IMO, was that while Sonny was the ch*nk in the Don’s armor, Luca was the armor. Sollozzo had to find a way to eliminate Luca before he tried to negotiate with Sonny. Luca was more important than Sonny in Sollozzo’s plan. And that scenario shows us where the Don was really slippin’:

When Vito turned him down, he presented Sollozzo with an inimical, “I win/you lose” situation. Sollozzo immediately figured he had to kill Vito. Sonny’s indiscretion gave him hope that he might persuade the Corleones to go along with him. But he knew he couldn’t survive to negotiate with Sonny unless he first eliminated Luca. He knew that nothing would stop Luca from seeking revenge. Hagen told him something he already knew when he said, “Not even Sonny’ll be able to stop Luca.” Luca might even have come after Sonny if he’d tried to negotiate a deal with Sollozzo after Vito’s death. So, he needed all that time to find a way to get rid of Luca first.

And Vito handed Luca to him on a silver platter:

If Vito had told Luca, “I’m a little worried about this Sollozzo fella—kill him,” Sollozzo soon would have been dead. But by telling Luca to “Go to the Tattaglias…make them think that you’re not too happy with our family…” Vito was arming Luca with a ridiculous story that no one would believe. Every Mob guy in New York knew that Luca worshipped Vito, and would never betray him. They also knew that Vito would never let Luca—his strong right arm, his “most valued friend” [movie], “one of the great stones in his power structure” and “a man who could do a job of murder all by himself” [novel]—proffer his unique services to a rival family.

So, when Luca made his first overture to Sollozzo and Tattaglia, they knew immediately that it was bull***t. It showed them that Vito was running scared, and not thinking strategically. What’s more, it gave them plenty of time to set a trap for Luca. He showed up at Tattaglia’s club that night seeking to play out a deception that never deceived them. They showed up fully prepared to kill him—and they did.

With Luca out of the way, Sollozzo was free to attack Vito without fear of retaliation from the Corleones’ most implacable defender. And, formidable though Sonny was, he was thrust in the position of acting head of the family—a position he was ill-equipped to handle and that left him unable to command his troops on the street. By eliminating Luca, Sollozzo gained the psychological upper hand, and cleared the path to making Sonny and Hagen consider his proposition by showing them that their armor had been stripped away.

So, when he told Hagen that “The Don, rest in peace, was slippin’—ten years ago, could I have gotten to him?” Sollozzo didn’t just mean that Vito had screwed up his bodyguard detail on the day he was shot. He meant that he’d discovered that Vito had made himself vulnerable by relying too heavily on Luca for protection and Sonny for succession. Too bad for Sollozzo that he slipped up by underestimating Michael.

I agree with you, the “Don was Slippin”. It certainly wasn’t a very well thought out plan of Vito’s to think that anyone would believe that Luca had turned against the Corleone’s . Vito clearly knew ahead of time that his decision to turn down Sollozzo’s proposed business was going to mean trouble, because why else would he have Luca already at the office the day of the Sollozzo meeting? At the least he should have been more cautious in the future about a possible hit.

Something else that I’ve wondered is why did Vito include all his top people in the meeting with Sollozzo, but go it alone with his plan afterwards? Was Vito worried, that his top people might turn against him over the drug business? It’s possible that he eventually told the others about sending Luca on his mission, but we don’t know if he absolutely did. The meeting after Vito’s attempted hit showed that they didn’t know where Luca was or whether he was still loyal.

Vito underestimated sollozo and paid the price of doing so.

I always thought Lucca was the wrong guy to go to find out what Sollozzo had underneath his fingernails. Clemenza or Tessio would have been better choices to serve as spies. Still, I don't fully understand what Vito was thinking when he cooked up this scheme. Say, for instance Sollozzo and Tattaglia Jr. bought Luca's story. Then what? Does Luca go to work for them and report back to Vito? At some point does he leave Sollozzo and return to the Corleones? The whole scheme makes no sense.
Assuming Luca infiltrated the operation, at best he would have learned that it was Barzini, not Tattaglia who was running this drug operation. With that information, Vito would know all the families were lined up against him, and there would have been a war. This happened anyway.

I agree 100% TB. Luca was the Don's most loyal and powerful ally.
There was no way that Luca would ever go against the Don and no way that Sollozo and company could let a powerful man like Luca live if they planned on taking out Vito and getting the Corleone's to negotiate with them. One exchange between Tom and Sonny really supports the point that you have made here :

TOM: "Now what about Luca? Sollozzo didn't seem to be worried about Luca..."

SONNY: "Aw --I don't know -- if Luca sold out we're in a lot of trouble, believe me. A lot of trouble."


Sold out, killed, it's all is the same at that point because Sonny realizes that without Luca the Corleones are in trouble because they've lost a huge chunk of their strength.

If I may I would like to reference the book here for a moment to shed even more light on the fact that Sonny knew, and Vito should have knwon, that Luca was one of the most important pieces to the Corleone power :

In the novel when young Don Vito is shot by the Irish gang, it is then that Santino makes his mark by running the family and commanding a very successful street war. But it is that one piece of artillery that enables young Santino to achieve victory in that war : Luca Brazi. For it was Luca who singlehandedly went out and destroyed that Irish gang.

Barzini and Tattaglia knew this and therefore in their plan with Sollozo to attempt to kill Vito, they had to make sure that Vito's strongest piece of artillery was rendered impotent in order for them to achieve what they were trying to achieve. And what did Vito do? He handed his TOP street soldier, his best weapon, his strongest piece of artillery, right over to the enemy.

A huge mistake on Vito's part to send a man like Luca on a mission like that. A young and sharp General would never make that mistake. But he was ten years older, he was slippin.

Turnbull eloquently writes and concludes...

 Quote:

So, when he told Michael that “The Don, rest in peace, was slippin’—ten years ago, could I have gotten to him?” Sollozzo didn’t just mean that Vito had screwed up his bodyguard detail on the day he was shot. He meant that he’d discovered that Vito had made himself vulnerable by relying too heavily on Luca for protection and Sonny for succession...

...and Tom for counsel!

The interpretation of "ten years ago, could I have gotten to him" has always been one of my favorite discussions. Ten years ago, as Sonny would say, "Pop had Genco. Look what I got."

Ten years ago, with Genco as consigliere, I don't think Don Corleone takes a meeting with Virgil Sollazzo at all, and certainly not to tell him, "No." You don't take a meeting like this to tell someone "no" because "a refusal is not the act of a friend." You only take that meeting to say YES and seal the deal. I believe Genco would have understood either implicitly or because Vito had stated a position that a drug deal at any level wasn't an option. Moreover, I think Genco would have understood that someone at Sollazzo's level approaching the Corleone family must be doing so with the backing and approval of another family. He would see Sollazzo as a fast-moving threat to the Corleone family, since Sollazzo has the backing of another family and requires the political clout of the Corleone family to advance his business venture. He's a threat that will not settle for no and will do whatever is necessary to get what he wants/needs. I don't believe Genco would ever imply that the Corleone's would consider involvement in the drug trade and would have arranged for an "accident" to occur to someone like Sollazzo to dismiss the threat and send a message to the other families.

But Tom tells Vito, "Now, we have to give Virgil Sollazzo a day next week." And that would imply Tom has already communicated that the family would interested in hearing about Sollazzo's deal, and I think Sollazzo could rightfully believe SOMEONE in the Corleone family thinks his deal has merit and will give their approval in some form. Then he's told, "No." That's an embarrassment for Sollazzo, and although he's already made up his mind to whack Vito for leverage, nobody seems to comprehend the threat or feel a sense of urgency to watch their backs. Vito's misguided use of Luca is but another error in judgement in a series of errors.

Tom's insistence that they meet with Sollazzo validates Sollazzo's standing. To me, that's a HUGE mistake, a mistake Genco NEVER would have made. Ten years ago, no, you would not have gotten to the Don.

It's Tom's counsel (and lack of "Sicilian cunning") that provided the crack in the armor which allowed Sollazzo to drive-in the wedge. (It's Tom's counsel that give us the entire premise for the movie!)

tony b.

Very Astute Tony B.

Tom knew the Tattaglias were backing Sollozzo, but he did not figure that Barzini was also in on it. This was also a blunder.
I think the way Genco would have handled it to avoid a war would have been to approach the consiglieres of the other families and tell them unequivocable the Corleones would not risk their political and judical protection for this drug pusher who was running around.

After that I am sure workd could have gone to the Police that there was this new mafioso in town trying to set up a drug operation. Since he already had a prison record in Italy, he would be lucky to be deported, and likely to be wearing cement boots in the east river.

What Vito failed to take into account was what the other families knew about the relationship between Vito and Luca. That relationship was legendary and even the Tattaglias would never have bought into Luca's supposed dissatisfaction withthe Corleones. That was Vito's slip-up.

Good point! As we know, it was Vito's policy to give orders to subordinates one at a time, using Tom as the intermediary. That way, if anyone (even Tom) turned rat, they'd never be able to give the police another witness--a corroborating witness--who could back them up about Vito's criminal orders. Luca reported to Vito directly, not through Tom. That was probably because only Vito could control Luca, and it was probably prudent for Vito to flatter Luca with that special relationship. What's more, since Luca was Vito's one-man murder machine, a lot of those orders probably involved killing, so it was best that Tom wasn't part of the order chain. I'm guessing that Vito figured that he might have to have either Sollozzo or Tattaglia whacked at the end of Luca's fact-finding mission, and who else but Luca would do it?

Conversely, everyone was present for the Sollozzo meeting because Vito had already made up his mind to say no. If anything, he was arming himself with plenty of witnesses who'd heard him say "no" to drugs, in case Sollozzo ever tried to implicate Vito in his scheme to save his own neck with the police. Vito may also have had everyone present because he suspected (rightly) that some of them (like Sonny and Tom) were hot to get into the drugs business--and he wanted them to know that he was against it foresquare. So, if hotheaded Sonny decided to do some drugs action on his own,he'd have Tessio, Clemenza, Tom and Fredo to remind him of his father's opposition.

Yes! And let's not forget that Tom was strongly in favor of the deal. While he was "doing his duty" to counsel his Don about a good business opportunity, and only the Don could decide, Tom's advocacy probably made the difference between the meeting happening or not (per your Genco scenario). When he said to Vito, "We can't put the Sollozzo meeting off any longer," I took it to mean that Vito had pretty much said no several times before, and Tom was pestering him to at least hear Sollozzo out.

Vito had been shot in the previous war, so apparently someone could get to him ten years ago.

By a bunch of Irish thugs, no less, but you'd have to read the book to remember that. Good catch!

Apparently some people just post replies, and judging by the comments that are made, they're not even bothering to read other posts in the topic.

Wiseass

I'm going to edit the title of this topic to read :

Pizzaboy's Slipup

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

Just kidding .

Then why did you bring Fredo to City Island?

Vito tells Sollozzo that he is meeting with him because he is a good business man and a man to be treated with respect. Who told Vito this? Tom? Tattaglia?

I don't agree with all the Tom-bashing on this thread.

True, Tom says that Vito has to give Sollozzo a day next week. But that proves nothing more than that Sollozzo has been previously discussed. To suggest that Tom has indicated to Sollozzo that the Corleones may be interested is a stretch. If nothing else, that would be very out of character for Tom.

There's no reason to believe that Tom has the ability or inclination to force Vito into a meeting he does not want to have. And the meeting wasn't the problem - the refusal was. Had Tom counseled Vito not to meet, things would likely have proceeed the same way. The only difference is that Sonny opened his pie-hole in the meeting, which you can hardly blame on Tom.

If memory serves, in a deleted scene Vito instructs Tom to add to his notes that Sollozzo has a background in prostitution. This shows that Vito is very familiar with Sollozzo outside of what Tom has told him.

Tom's counsel was ultimately irrelevant in the ensuing events. I don't see how Genco would have been able to forestall the impact of narcotics on the Corleones or the Cosa Nostra in general.

True. In the film Vito tells Sollozzo that one reason he is seeing him is out of his respect for the Tattaglias. Tom sees the future and it is drugs. Vito had his objections, and given what we have witnessed, it has been the Mafia's bain.

I think it was Vito trying to be diplomatic, and to soften the blow he was about to deliver to Sollozzo, and through him, to
Tattaglia. As we know, he had no respect for Tattaglia because Tat was a pimp.

When Sollozzo kidnapped Tom he said, "Sonny was hot for my deal, right? And you knew it was the right thing to do." How'd Sollozzo get that impression? Not at the meeting. But he must have been in contact with Tom several times prior to the meeting, and have gotten some hint from Tom that Tom thought it was a good idea.


Of course Tom couldn't force Vito to have the meeting. But Tom's advice and persistence for Vito to not only have the meeting but to approve drug trafficking had to have had some influence on Vito.
I agree that the drugs business was bigger than Vito, and that Vito should have realized it and gone along in some way, or at least not opposed it, for the safety and security of his family. In the novel, Vito asks Tom: "What did you think of that man?" Tom replies: "He's a Sicilian"--meaning that he wouldn't take no for an answer. That's when Vito told Tom to send Luca to see him. And that's where Vito made his big slip up--telling Luca to do the pretend-thing.

This raises two questions:
1. Could Vito have stopped drug trafficking? No--too much money in it. But he might have delayed it. He could have told Sollozzo that he'd have to think about it. Meanwhile, he'd arrange for Luca to meet Sollozzo to discuss terms. Luca would arrange a meeting among himself, Sollozzo and a drug dealer of Luca's acquaintance. Luca would murder the other two and make it look like they killed each other over a drug deal gone bad. No one in the Families would have been deceived, but that's what Vito would want: A shot fired across their bows. Tattaglia, the pimp, would have to suck it up. Barzini would have to bide his time. He'd still be hot to trot, but with Sollozzo dead, he'd have to wait for another wholesaler to approach him. A temporary measure, to be sure, but one that would have worked over the short term.

2. Suppose Sonny hadn't shot off his mouth--would Sollozzo have tried to kill Vito anyway? I think Sollozzo would not have taken no for an answer. But, with no obvious ch*ink in Vito's armor, he'd have a much harder time persuading Tat and Barzini that killing Vito would get them where they wanted to go. It'd be all-out war with a vengeful, no-drugs Sonny, instead of a possible deal with a greedy, pro-drugs Sonny. I think a more likely scenario would be for Sol to convince the heads of the Families to call a meeting like the one we saw later, to persuade Vito to give his approval. That might have worked. But Sol would have lost a lot of clout because he'd have to rely on the other families to do what he failed to do.

Another question related to this topic.

The novel says:
He [Sonny] said eagerly, “The Tattaglia family guarantees the return of our investment without any percentage from us?”

In the film he acts as if he feels insulted by Sollozzo: "Aw, you're telling me that the Tattaglias guarantee our investment?"

My point: A greedy Sonny is obviously "a ch*nk in the Don’s fortress", while the insulted Sonny isn't necessarily.

Was this little twist in interpretation of the script intended by FCC and/or James Caan?

He's not insulted. His "Aw, you're telling me...." is more of an "I don't believe it, it's too good to be true, you're kidding me" kind of a response. Not a response of being insulted.

That is why The Turk says, "Sonny was hot for my deal" because the Turk, seeing Sonny's reactive outburst realized that Sonny was sort of awed that the would be guarenteeing such a large investment.

Sonny's response made the Turk realize that he had gotten Sonny's attention. So the Turk's attempt to get Vito out of the way was his way of responding to Sonny's outburst, saying "I have you interested now huh? Yep I'll guarentee the investment. Unbelievable deal, right? A can't lose proposition."

Sonny's response showed interest in Sollozo's offer. He was not insulted.

Another key point in Sonny's movie statement that supports DC's viewpoint: "Aw, you're telling me..." [emphasis added]. Sollozzo's talking to Vito, and Sonny answers as if he's the head of the family. A Sicilian like Sollozzo would have picked up on that.

Great observations DC and TB, and I will take it a step further.
In a meeting like this it is totally inappropiate for anyone to
speak other than the two people doing the negotiating (imagine Al Neri telling Senator Geary "You're telling me that the only way we can move Klimgman out is if we pay you a bribe?). What this tells Sollozzo is not only that Sonny is hot for his idea, but that Sonny is hot to take over the franchise and is counting the days until Vito dies or relinquishes power.

I agree with most everything said here. Vito really WAS slipping by thinking that the other families wouldn't think something's fishy when Luca Brasi starts to say that he's not happy with the Corleones. Clemenza or Tessio I could see (although it'd be a hard sell since they're such close friends, but hey Tessio did it at the end) if they mentioned something about Tom becoming Consiglieri ("Yeah.. he made the Irish kid consiglierie instead of me, who's been his friend for twenty years"). But Luca? No way!

I'd like to also add, though, that in the novel Luca debates bringing a gun to the meeting in case he gets a chance to whack Sollozzo, but then decides against it and figures he'll just get information, and relay it back to Vito. Luca is excused from this because he wants to follow orders and isn't supposed to be that smart, but he should have known, and Vito should have known, that everyone else is going to wonder why Luca would go against Don Corleone's wishes (I believe the novel also has Luca saying he wants to get a piece of the drug action himself to make more money).

Good points about Luca. It's been discussed in other threads, but the NY underworld knew all about Luca's legendary loyalty to Vito. Why Vito thought that they would think that Luca was suddenly displeased with Vito is beyond me.

Maybe it has more to do with the fact that he thought Luca was more expendable than one of his Capos.

Well, if he did, he lied to Luca when he told him that he was his most valued friend.