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Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? #462710
01/10/08 04:29 PM
01/10/08 04:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 75
DivaLasVegas82 Offline OP
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DivaLasVegas82  Offline OP
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In G1, when Michael introduces Tom to Kay, he says, "This is my brother--Tom Hagen." Now unlike Fredo, who Kay also meets, Michael did use Tom's first and last name to distinguish him from the his biological brothers. Nonetheless, he still considered Tom to be his brother. In GII, Sonny calls Tom his stepbrother when he takes Carlo to meet his family. I thought it was odd that Sonny would address Tom as his stepbrother when Sonny was closer to Tom than he was his biological brothers, at that was the case in the novel. On the other hand, in the book and the novel, Sonny does tells Tom, "He's not your father" when Tom tells him he would have to make the deal if Vito died. So it is possible that even though Sonny loved Tom like a brother, he could never consider Tom a brother.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: DivaLasVegas82] #462878
01/10/08 07:26 PM
01/10/08 07:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
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I think Tom's exact words were something like "If your father dies, you make the deal, Sonny", as opposed to "If Pop dies, you make the deal, Sonny". I think Tom was being formal to impress upon Sonny the importance of making the right move. Sonny was in a very agitated state and didn't appreciate Tom's cold analysis which is why he made the crack about such a thing being easy for Tom to advise, after all Vito wasn't HIS father.

But as Tom points out and Sonny accepts, Tom was as much a son to Vito as Mike or Sonny.

So I think Sonny did consider Tom a brother.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: Lilo] #462976
01/10/08 09:12 PM
01/10/08 09:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
O
olivant Offline
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He considered him a brother. The novel points out that Mike notices how affectionately Sonny welcomed Tom home from his escapade courtesy of Sollozzo. Brother or stepbrother can be a function of the time and place where references are made. It's also a function of the writers whim, presence of mind, etc.

You've also got to consider that peope get upset sometimes and when they do they use language that they might not otherwise use. Whn he told him he was not his father, Sonny was upset about alot of things at the time and Sonny tended to take everything personally.

Last edited by olivant; 01/10/08 09:14 PM.

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Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: olivant] #462997
01/10/08 10:34 PM
01/10/08 10:34 PM
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DivaLasVegas82 Offline OP
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DivaLasVegas82  Offline OP
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Brother or stepbrother can be a function of the time and place where references are made. It's also a function of the writers whim, presence of mind, etc.

That's true. Even though they were not biologically related, Tom had been apart of the Corleone family for so long that I guess I just don't get why Sonny didn't say, "These are my brothers--Fredo and Tom." The fact that he called Tom his stepbrother and Fredo his brother indicated that even though Sonny brought Tom into the family, he would never be a REAL Corleone. I think Vito felt the same way, which is why Vito never formally adopted Tom.

Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: olivant] #463001
01/10/08 11:02 PM
01/10/08 11:02 PM
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Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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 Originally Posted By: olivant
He considered him a brother. The novel points out that Mike notices how affectionately Sonny welcomed Tom home from his escapade courtesy of Sollozzo. Brother or stepbrother can be a function of the time and place where references are made. It's also a function of the writers whim, presence of mind, etc.

You've also got to consider that peope get upset sometimes and when they do they use language that they might not otherwise use. Whn he told him he was not his father, Sonny was upset about alot of things at the time and Sonny tended to take everything personally.

Well said, Olivant. \:\)
As we saw in GF and II, Michael was never as close to Tom as Sonny was. His introduction of Tom to Kay as "My brother, Tom Hagen," was a dramatic device: it set Kay up for asking why Tom had a different last name, and for Michael to explain how Sonny and Vito "adopted" Tom.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: Turnbull] #463170
01/11/08 12:40 PM
01/11/08 12:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

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Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
I think we al agree that Vito and Sonny were far more accepting and caring for Tom thn Michael ever was. I don't think this has been brought out before, but throughout the two films in which Tom apears, both Connie and Fredo pay great deference to him as an "older brother."


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: olivant] #463502
01/12/08 08:32 PM
01/12/08 08:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
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Danito Offline
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Danito  Offline
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Interesting though, Tom only once refers to Vito as his father, and that is when Sonny says that "he is not your father".
Sonny on the other hand is ambivalent about Tom's status in the family. "Mom has made dinner." "Pop had Genco." Both phrases imply "our Mom, our Pop".
I wonder if it's really believable that Tom always speaks about "your father", when in fact he "always wants to be a real brother".

Re: Tom: Brother or Stepbrother? [Re: Danito] #463508
01/12/08 09:47 PM
01/12/08 09:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
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Turnbull Offline
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[quote=Danito]Sonny on the other hand is ambivalent about Tom's status in the family. "Mom has made dinner." "Pop had Genco." Both phrases imply "our Mom, our Pop".
That's hardly ambivalent. It says, as you noted, "our." Sonny is very clearly including Tom under "Pop."
 Quote:
I wonder if it's really believable that Tom always speaks about "your father", when in fact he "always wants to be a real brother".

There's a nice consistency in Tom's verbal "distance" from the familiarity that implies brotherhood. I believe that he was acutely conscious of his role as consigliere, and needed to maintain a kind of impartiality when rendering opinions on behalf of the family. So, he asks Vito, "Do we give your new son-in-law an important position...?"--not "Carlo" or "my new brother-in-law." And though Sonny refers to Vito as "Pop" to Tom, he says, while counseling Sonny, "If your father dies..." I see that as lawyerly detachment--deliberate separation from the personal in order to render an objective judgment.
As for Michael: It's clear throughout GF and II that Michael never was on board with Tom as a brother to the same extent as was Sonny. Even when he introduced Tom to Kay at Connie's wedding, he was careful to say, "My brother, Tom Hagen..."
Although (as noted above) it was a device to get Kay to ask why he had a different last name, and thus have Michael tell the story about how Sonny and Vito took Tom in, it still, to my mind, implies distance.
Another not-so-subtle distancing touch: After the Tahoe shooting, Michael plays Tom like a violin, telling him he's his "brother," and how he kept things from Tom because he "admired" Tom and all that other BS. He practically reduces Tom to tears. Tom says, "I always wanted to be regarded as a brother by you," meaning that he always had doubts about where Michael stood. But as soon as Michael returned from Cuba, he started with abusive language toward Tom, culminating in the humiliation he inflicted in the penultimate boathouse scene. Some brother. \:p


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

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