This thread was long overdue
More like a thread for unshaven armpits and such rather than serious discussions on "Roth's $2 million" or "Why was Tom left out"

This is a good idea. Share thoughts and questions here that don't necessarily warrant their own thread. It can also be a good place to offer up ideas to the mods for possible future threads.

What I'd like to know is who are those men getting off the boat at Anthony's communion party? There's at least four of them, possibly five or six. Could these be the assassins and the assassins of the assassins...??

Good question. We know that they were "Johnny's men" because Michael told Rocco to get them something to eat. But they weren't likely the killers because Rocco and the others would have recognized them

...Unless Rocco was also a traitor. Et tu Rocco?

Does anyone else think that Michael was moving Heaven and Earth to apprehend Vincenzo Pentangeli??


After Tom says that Vincenzo didn't even want to go dinner, that he just wanted to go straight home, Frankie says of his brother: "There's nothing that could get him out of that two-mule town." So how the heck did Michael even find him in that two-mule town, and how in the world did they get this man on a plane to the States in time for Michael's trial?

Frankie also says that his brother "could have been big here. He could have had his own family." So are we to assume that Vincenzo is somehow connected with the mob-world over in Sicily?

At the "sit-down" between Michael and Fredo in Havana, after Michael reveals his uncovering of Roth's plot to Fredo, Fredo asks, Why didn't we spend time like this before?

I think that comment is a total ruse and ploy on Fredo's part, and by no means is it genuine remorse that the two haven't spent time together. He's afraid that Michael might already suspect his treachery, and is trying to save his own butt. What an asshole.

Agreed?

Some people here (including me) think Fredo had a far more active role in Michael's betrayal than simply giving Ola information or opening the drapes. So, your idea of a ruse would fit right in But Fredo was such an airhead and general dunce that it's possible he was simply expressing an emotion he felt at that moment.

And for years I have disputed you and several other on that theory. That was until you made the point about Fredo's ability to escape from Cuba without the help of Michael, and also how and probably why the military went to Roth's hospital room. Now I do believe that Fredo WAS indeed more involved with Roth and his plot to take Michael out of the picture.

I'm confused as to why some ppl are still in doubt as to the extent of Fredo's guilt -- Fredo was in with Roth the WHOLE way.

FFC gives us definitive evidence of this in the penultimate boathouse scene when Fredo divulges his knowledge about Pentangeli being in Gov't custody and Questadt belonging to Roth. B/c of course, the only way Fredo could have this info is if he was in the closest of contact with Roth for the duration of the film. Shortly after the botched Tahoe attempt, Fredo tells Ola via phone NOT to call him anymore, but we know that's not the way things shaped out. B/c Roth, of course, wouldn't have formed his Pentangeli/Questadt plan until quite some time after the botched Tahoe attempt (he expected to easily kill Mike in Havana anyway) so thus we can infer that Fredo was in contact with Roth/Ola the WHOLE way, baby.

Thus it makes good sense to assume that Fredo was still trying to help Roth remove his brother at the New Years Eve party in Havana. And now knowing the depth of Fredo's involvement, we can infer that Fredo was in fact on his way to tip the police off when he went to get his "real drink".

So, of course Roth helped Fredo escape. As Turbull has noted before, Fredo must have called Tom after Havana. The only way Tom could have knowledge of the bodyguard's death AND Roth's heart attack/escape by boat (a boat that Fredo is also on) would be if Fredo knew. And if Fredo knows, then we can naturally infer he is still cahoots with Roth and thus Roth got him out of Havana.

Michael knows it far before.When he realizes that Ola and Freddo know each other...
Tom's knowledge of the story is seen really suspiciously in this forum.I think that being the Don (Michael defined him as his replacement)allowed him to know stuff

I should have been more clear in my post. I'm not trying to prove the fact that he's guilty, but the extent of his guilt.

Fredo's knowledge about Pentangeli and Questadt implies he was in contact with Roth throughout much of the film. And if this is the case, then it can only mean that Fredo was determined to remove his brother from power each and every step of the way, NOT just the botched Tahoe attempt.

Well, nothing like a little Fredo-Roth conspiracy talk to start the week..

I think I can visualise perfectly Roth's whole courting process of Fredo. Roth had the ability to present himself as such a nice, caring, sweet old man, and poor little Fredo probably thought he was the real Santa Claus or somethin'. I suspect that Roth probably gave Fredo the same song-and-dance that he gave Michael:

ROTH: I consider you my son, my successor. You know how much I loved your fadher, what we will do together will make history -- HISTORY, Fredo. It's (fratricide) never been done before in the mob world. You're smaht, Fredo, not like..dumb. And you want respect.

And then, after Roth's attempt on Mike's life in Tahoe fails..

ROTH: Ok, Freddie. The hit failed so I'll have to move to Plan B. I'm luring your brother to Havana where he'll be easily gunned down by Batista's Presidential Guard. But I need you in Havana to keep me updated on your brother's actions b/c he likely suspects me now and MIGHT be planning to take me out. So, I'm requesting that Micheal bring 2 million as a gift to the Cuban gov't. And that's where you come in, Fredo. You insist that you wanna help, and that you'd like to be the one to transfer the money down there. I could care less about the 2 million, but it's a good way to get you involved. I need you following Mike the whole way, informing me of his every move. Your brother Mike will never see the New Year..

FREDO: And there's still somethin' in it fuh me, right?

ROTH: Uhm, well, a smaller piece, but ya. We'll discuss that after we get back from Havana.

Roth's plan called for Mike to be murdered by the Batista Presidential Guard while driving home AFTER the New Year's Eve party.

So Carlo beats the crap out of Connie and shows how clever he is by pretending to leave the apartment, but is really hiding behind a curtain. This is how he knows that she caled Sonny. Once she hangs up she probably says to herself, "while I am staying here waiting for Sonny to come, I guess I'll clean up this mess. Then Carlo slinks out, calls Barzini to tip him Sonny is on the way and Barzini then has about 10 minutes to tip off the guards at the toll booth and get al his hitters in lace to shoot Sonny. Not plausibe timing,but the real question is did Carlo go off to meet the woman who called COnnie to cancel the date, and when he found out he had been stood up what did he do to HER?

Not to mention that when Kay asks Michael where he is now Michael says on a plane back to Sicily. Pretty slick travel arrangements, especially in light of Tom Hagen's comment that
the guy came from the two mule town at his own expense. I bet he may have come on his own expense, nut I bet the Corleones reimbursed him and took care of the return flight. Hioe they were nice enough to send him First Class.

Also if you could never get him out of that two mule town, how is it that he had a passport?

Documents can be made if you have the cash and connections.

And it helps when you have the right judges and politicians in your pocket.

Like so many nickels and dimes.

Remember that Michael still had connections in Sicily, and Corleone, to which Michael was able to walk when he lived there, is very close to Partinico. I'm sure that finding Vincenzo was not hard at all for the Corleones.

Yes, I agree, b/c of the time issue. I don't see how it's possible for Vincenzo to have arrived in America so quickly. At the end of Michael's questioning, the Senator leading the proceeding says that the court will meet again at 10a.m Monday morning, at which time they will call a witness (Frankie) to refute Mike's testimony. So, we can infer that Michael's questioning was on Friday, right?? Thus, they would barely two days (if even that much) to put the plan into action.

So let's think about the sequence of events here: Michael and Tom go home Friday after the proceedings and have to piece together who the hell the surprise witness is. Tom makes some calls and figures out it's Pentangeli; Michael then asks to see Fredo. We see Michael and Fredo meet (during daylight hrs, perhaps Saturday morning??) and Michael then knows for certain that Questadt belongs to Roth, and that Frankie is the surprise witness. Thus, by this time, Michael has AT MOST about two days to get Vincenzo to America, but more than likely he only has about a day and a half. And I don't see it happening in such a short amount of time.

Frankly, I also think it's a stretch to assume that Michael would be able to come up with the idea so quickly -- he would have had to have come up with the Vincenzo plan within a cpl of hrs after learning about Frankie.

Anyone agree with my logic here?

In the boathouse scene where Michael tells Tom he's going away, and he's gonna be the Don, Tom questions if Rocco or Al could be the mole. Michael explains are their people are businessmen, and they're loyalty is based on that. What a short memory Tom has. He should have remembered that with the Tessio situation. "It's the smart move. Tessio was always smarter". Tessio even tells Tom before his final ride, "Tell Michael is it was only business. I always liked him".

I don't know if I completely agree with the fact that Fredo was in on killing Michael the WHOLE WAY. Although I find myself leaning that way, I think about the incident when Ola calls Fredo at his house late at night when Fredo's wife asks "who was that hunny?..."wrong number." In that phone conversation Fredo says "you guys lied to me." What did they lie about? Did they lie about the fact that they would guarantee Michael's death at Lake Tahoe? The fact that Ola and Roth 'lied' to Fredo reveals that Fredo no longer trusts Ola and Roth and no longer wants any part in killing Mike because he believes that they CAN'T KILL MIKE. Also, doesn't the fact that Fredo says "I don't want you guys calling me anymore" imply that he doesn't want to kill Michael anymore. I think this is one way that people could argue that Fredo WASN'T GOING ALL THE WAY in killing Michael.

I don't think Fredo EVER thought the idea "in it for him" was about killing Mike -- in HIS head at least. By no means have I figured it all out, but Fredo was a sorry gullible SOB after all......

Fredo might have said "I don't want you guys calling me anymore" but they DID call him again, and he certainly listened. How else could he have know about Pentangeli and Questadt.

Don Tomasso gave a good summation of what happened next:

After Michael and Tom figure out that Pentangeli is alive and that Michael has been set up in a perjury trap, Michael asks Tom what Fredo knows, and Tom says Fredo says he doesn't know anything. Michael calmly tells Tom he wants to meet privately with Fredo when the great "I'm smaht" scene takes place. During the scene Michael asks Fredo whether there is anything he knows that can be of help, and Fredo says he knows Pentangeli is alive, and then he adds that Questadt belongs to Roth. Seems to me that had Fredo told this to Tom and Michael before the hearings they would have devised some different approach to things, perhaps even outing or taking out Questadt. It also shows that Fredo's treachery against Michael was ongoing because he did not come clean when Michael gave him what apparently was another chance.

Ditto. After Roth helped him escape, Fredo called Tom from New York and told him about the bodyguard's death and Roth's escape from Cuba by private boat (we know this b/c it's the only way that Tom could have been aware of this information), and if Fredo has knowledge of all of this, then we can safely assume that he was still in contact with Roth during the Cuba sequence.

Fredo is GUILTY.

Before this thread becomes too serious, I'd like to focus on another issue: How many barechested/topless people do you spot in GF1?
As far as I can see, it's only Clemenza and Appollonia, which I consider a nice coincidence.

Did Clemenza shave HIS armpits?

Not that we know of. But rumor has it that he did shave his cannoli.

Clemenza had a ddd cup size

Whose idea was Michael's ascot in Part II?

What the f***?