I am a huge Godfather fan. I love not only the movies, but the books as well. Just had some questions about the Godfather movies...

1. Why does Michael tell Tom "you're out" during the meeting?

2. In Part II, when Michael visits Pentangelli, why does he first accuse him and then say he wants his help to take revenge?

3. Can someone clarify the role of the Rosaro brothers? Why do they try to kill Pentangelli?

I am new to all of this so I would appreciate any help

Welcome, NIAFmember! You're not the only one who's asked those questions--they're among the most often-asked on this Board. You can find the answers to these and to others by using the Search utility here. But, briefly:
1. Michael tells Tom that he's out because he's "not a wartime consigliere."--he didn't have the cunning, or perhaps the force, to function during wartime as his predecessor, Genco Abbandando, did. That's a very truncated answer. Search that topic and you'll find many interesting nuances.
2. Michael was a master manipulator. The finger of suspicion was pointing at Pentangeli for the Tahoe shooting. Michael was almost totally convinced it wasn't Pentangeli. But he yelled, then asked for his help, to soften him up--to make him so grateful that Michael didn't blame him that he'd agree to Michael's request to "settle these problems with the Rosato brothers." He played Frankie like a violin.
3. The Rosatos were a faction in Clemenza's family. Pentangeli inherited them, and the alleged promises Clemenza made to them for territories. They are based on the real-life Gallo brothers, a faction in the Profaci family in NYC. The garrotting of Frankie is based on an episode in the Gallo/Profaci war.

1. If you viewed that scene, how did you miss the follow-up scene when Michael very explicitly tells Tom that he is not a wartime Consigliere? If you somehow missed that scene, there is an immediate subsequent scene where Vito tells Tom that he must not have any part in what is about to take place.

2. Accuse Pentangeli of what? Nothing. Instead, he tells him with an irate demeanor that his attempted assassination took place in his home, etc. Since Pentangeli is in charge of the Corleone family activities in NY, why wouldn't he utilize Pentangeli to take his revenge?

3. It's the Rosa[t]o brothers. Here again, there are prior and post scenes that make it pretty plain that Hymen Roth wants Mike out of the way, that Pentangeli is Mike's ally, and that the Rosato brothers are Roth's allies.

I believe that he may have meant to use the word "imply" instead of the word "accuse" in his question.

And he actually did utilize Frankie to take his revenge...only he did it in his own manipulating Michael way!

It wasn't really an irate demeanor. It was an act. In Michael's rant he purposely implies to Frankie that he suspects him without actually coming out and accusing him. Michael obviously puts on that LOUD RANT to put the thought in Frankie's head, even just for a moment, that he suspected him and was possibly facing the wrath of his Don. Michael did this knowing that in his fear Frankie would now agree to do whatever Michael asks of him. And how does Frankie react? He plays right into Micahel's hands :

PENTANGELI : "Now -- Jesus Christ, Mike, Jesus Christ. Look, let's get 'em all -- let's get 'em all now, while we got the muscle."

At that moment Michael speaks softly, getting all nostalgic with Frankie. At that moment, by Frankie's reaction and his reply, Michael knows that he can now get Frankie to go and make the peace with the Rosato brothers.



All Michael wanted was for Frankie to agree to go to the Rosato Brothers to make the peace. And in the way that Michael intentionally goes off in that scene, he manipulates Frankie into agreeing to go to the Rosato brothers, which translates into utilizing Frankie to help him get his revenge on Roth.

Demeanor is a function of behavior, not motive.

Given Vito's advisory to Mike about a traitor, how and when did the subject of a family traitor in GFI originate?

Thank you professor!

You claim that it was Michael's irate demeanor, that it was an irate "behavior." An Irate demeanor would mean that Michael's behavior towards Frankie was one out of having anger or being enraged.

I say that it wasn't an irate demeanor, it wasn't behavior resulting out of being angered or enraged, but that it was more of a pre-planned act on Michael's part. An act, a motive to manipulate Frankie into doing what Michael really wanted to be done.

Demeanor is outward behavior, pure and simple, which, in this case, was irate.

So tell me, within the context of what we are discussing here, are you saying that Michael was truly angered, truly enraged at Frankie?

You have a point there, but I think Michaels suspicion arose when the shooting took place in the middle of his own compound right in his bedroom. The enemy had to be an insider to easely squeeze through those gates and make his way straight to his home. Its a common lesson taught to us in the Godfather series that your worst enemy is always close to you, he's an old friend or a family member, even Michael knew so since he warned Vincent in GF3 about that. (How he had to chose between the life or Mary, because when his enemies would come they'd come after her or everything close to him, and they'd be close to him too)

Any thoughts about this?

Of course he knew that only an insider could have gotten that close to killing him (and Kay). The issue was: who? Roth would have him believe that Pentangeli was behind it, but Michael saw through that ruse. In doing so, he saw that someone "very close to us [emphasis added]" was involved..."very scary." Yes it was!

After he found out that Altobello was behind the Atlantic City attack, and after learning that Sicily's top assassin--a man who never misses--is gunning for him, what does Michael do? He gathers his family around him inside and outside of a crowded public venue, making all of them sitting ducks for that assassin. It was Michael at his most arrogant and irresponsible.

I'm a bit lost here. Are we talking about GFI or GFII?

I think it was an example of Vito's "Sicilian cunning" at work. He made the other Dons believe he was weak and fading, and he and Michael were conspiring to make them think Michael wasn't the man Vito had been. And Vito had already concluded that "it was Barzini all along." So, it was logical for Vito to conclude that Barzini would make the next move--and do it by getting a trusted Corleone higher-up to turn traitor.

BTW: Another measure of Tom's lack of Sicilian cunning, IMO, is his statement, "I always thought it would be Clemenza." Why? Clemenza never evinced a shred of disloyalty to either Vito or Michael. Michael's reply, "Tessio was always smarter," was the logical (or if you like, Sicilian) conclusion.

I think Olivant's talking about Tessio, Part 1. The new guy's talking about Part 2.

I agree--I responded to Olivant about Tessio.

The quiz is out on the street that NIAFMember's already dead.

Oh sorry! Wrong thread. Well... Perhaps not.

As the Fonz would say "Rightamundo! GFI"

Olivant, perhaps you missed my initial question regarding the discussion that we were having about Michael and Frankie. So here is is again for you :

He could have been. The converse is possible also. Demeanor can be independent of motive or it can be a function of layered emotions. It can also be deceptive, meant to mislead. Or it can be a true and accurate reflection of one's motives and feelings. Demeanor is in the eye of the beholder.

Michael's demeanor during his conversation with Geary was calm, cool, and collected. For that matter, so was Geary's. Yet those demeanors masked a seething contempt one had for the other.

Oh im so sorry i thought I read GFII not GFI, I am terribly sorry if I confused anyone.

No need to call me "new guy" by the way.

That's right, O_Pazzo could actually be a "new girl" for all we know.

I'm glad you raised this question b/c it's one I've wanted to discuss here before.

I think he was testing Frankie, but he was trying to "encourage" him as well--that is, encourage him to settle the problems with the Rosato bros. But some of that rant was probably true anger on Michael's part. He was pretty damn pissed about the fact that he, the Don of the Corleone Crime Family, had been shot at in his HOME, and he wanted to make sure Frankie (a logical suspect in the shooting) was pissed as well.

I've always thought that Michael yelled so that the other people in the house would hear him, and perhaps someone would report back to Roth.