O.K. This is an ongoing discussion with friends.
Who knocked off the hit men who shot up Michaels bedroom, in part 2?

We've racked our brain for years now, and can't come up with an intelligent answer.

Hope someone can do better than me.

Thanks

Yours is probably the most often asked, and least definitively answered, question on this board. Check out the recent discussion on the "Fredo/Roth conspiracy" thread for recent views.

It's not only who knocked them off, but how. There's no indication they were stabbed and you couldn't garrot both of them. Someone would have had to murder them near the drainage ditch or otherwise you would have to drag them there. To kill them with a pistol would have required a silencer since a minimum of two shots from a pistol othrwise would have been heard all over the compound and quite possibly exposed the killer.

Olivant: We know their throats were cut. If you watch the scene on the big screen, you can see the slice marks across the necks.

The big problem with this scene, they left the bodies in front of Fredo's place. But we all know "he has a good heart, but he's weak." No way Fredo had the cajones to do the deed. Plus their guns were placed across the chests. What? they didn't fight back or shoot the oncoming assailant? They knew him (her)!

Oh, I agree. Fredo had more going than the movie lets on... but do you really think Fredo had the cajones to do this job?

Another little side point. When they discover the bodies, someone says, "looks like they are out of New York." How would they know that? Clothes? I love NY T-shirt? Makes you think it was a Rosato brother plot.

Or it makes you think someone wants to make Michael think it was a Pentangeli plot.

This may be a bit too extreme and complicted but this is possible:

I think that there may have been a bunch of hitmen (not just 2) that shot through Michael's window. There may have on only 3 hit men in total (who knows). In preparation for after the assassination attempt, Roth or one of the superiors could have told one hitman to kill the other two hitmen right after they killed Michael, thus cutting off any traces. Roth could have been like "Hey, Tony after you guys kill the Don, make sure you take care of Jimmy and Johnny in front of Fredo Corleone's house."

The fact that their throats were cut (from Contractor's comments) indicates that they were murdered close-up and meaning they were probably killed by someone close to them.

This is all I can figure.

Fredo had access to men who could carry out this task you speak of. And of course with a Hyman Roth sponsored hit you know there's plenty of $$$.

And let us not forget that the bodies were originally lying outside Fredo's window.

Lolly and Frank,

Where does it indicate in the film that the hitmen were killed outside Fredo's house? Yeah, Deanna is babbling about people outside her window, but the place where these guys are found do not indicate it's outside Fredo's house.

To cut one man's throat, one person could get away with, but to cut two throats? Highly unlikely. Wouldn't the second hitman see what was happening to his accomplice?

The plot thickens.

Good points MC. What some posters are forgetting is that a plot against the most powerful Don in the country should be confined to as few people as possible. Those posters are involving just too many people.

Deanna says, Right out my window! I want to get out of here! They're lying there dead! Now, why would she say this is it wasn't the case? And more importantly, why would it would be in the movie if it wasn't intended to serve as a clue??

As MC says, Deanna was babbling. Did you forget that she was falling down drunk on the dance floor? Also, the hitmen were found in a drainage ditch just a few feet from its culvert. Why would a drainge ditch be right outside her window?

So then what you're telling us, olivant & MC, is that FFC put that line in Deanna's script to mislead the audience...And I don't think I'm buying that. You think too much of FFC, kid, he's not that smaht.

What we tend to forget: Perhaps FFC was drunk when he wrote this part of the script. The whole scene is crowded with drunk people: Pentangeli, Deanna, Fredo, Manolo the landscaper, Connie, Geary's wife. Even Michael who never drinks, has champagne during a business talk and wine when they have their hundred-years-toast.
So I'm sure FFC must have been drunk when he wrote this part of the script.

Deana's sobriety has zero relevance here. And I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the bodies could have been taken from outside Fredo's window to the drainage. Let's assume that the assassins were told to meet back at Fredo's place after the hit. It was there, that two trusted Corleone associates, having been "bought off" by Roth, killed the two gunmen and then drug their bodies to the ditch.

What I'd like to know is who are those men getting off the boat at Anthony's communtion party. There's at least four of them, possibly five or six. Could these be the assassins and the assassins of the assassins...??

The world may never know...

Now hang on a second.. I agree that Micheal, Connie (& Merle), Frankie, Deanna (obviously), were all drinking VERY heavily. We've never known Michael to drink at all, yet he has several drinks throughout that party. However, Fredo is a different story all together. Compared to his condition at Connie's wedding he was completely sober. The Fredo at Connie's wedding and the Fredo at Anthony's communion are two VERY different ppl......almost night and day in fact. He's stone faced and alert during those opening scenes at Anthony's party, his mind is cluttered, and it's not only cluttered with thoughts of his drunken-slut wife. Johnny Ola is going to be at the party, so Fredo has to be very careful not to let on that they know each other. Yes, yes... I'm quite certain that Fredo had things other than alcohol on his mind that day, a LOT of things.

Ice, Wow, I never heard Deanna say that. I'll have to listen closer to her rant. That certainly would steer suspicion toward the Fredo theory.

Those men getting off the boat with Johnny Ola could have been the assasins of the assasins. I don't think they would have been the guys in the ditch. They would have been recognized since they arrived at the party and Michael asked Neri(?) to take care of Johnny's men.

Oh, these details.

Ya, the movie is much better if you assume that Fredo knew it was gonna be a hit - despite his telling Mike otherwise. After all, it's not a stretch to believe that Ol' Freddie had a bit of the Sicilian cunning in him, and was in fact lying to Mike in the infamous boathouse scene.

[quote=Frank_Nitti][/quote] Now hang on a second.. I agree that Micheal, Connie (& Merle), Frankie, Deanna (obviously), were all drinking VERY heavily. We've never known Michael to drink at all, yet he has several drinks throughout that party. However, Fredo is a different story all together. Compared to his condition at Connie's wedding he was completely sober. The Fredo at Connie's wedding and the Fredo at Anthony's communion are two VERY different ppl......almost night and day in fact. He's stone faced and alert during those opening scenes at Anthony's party, his mind is cluttered, and it's not only cluttered with thoughts of his drunken-slut wife. Johnny Ola is going to be at the party, so Fredo has to be very careful not to let on that they know each other. Yes, yes... I'm quite certain that Fredo had things other than alcohol on his mind that day, a LOT of things

but nitti, also remember that fredo was drunk at the bar in cuba watching the superman show and ley slip about ola and roth knowing about tha bar and going there. how much more could he have had to drink at either one. at anthonys party you could assume that he was drinking at the house all night long. at the bar scene we only see them arriving just in time or shortly before for supermans show. unless they were bar hoping which is not shown or alluded to, how juch did fredo have at the bar or how strong were the drinks or is fredo a light weight when he drinks. he makes those comments loud enought for the whole group to hear knowing mike would hear when he already told mike he didnt know or never met ola or roth, when he makes those comments and turns around and would have had to see how close mike was standing to him.

Well, he was pretty piss-drunk and stupid at the Superman Show, and that's why he blabbed his deepest, darkest secret ALOUD.

But I purposely didn't mention the Havana sequence b/c I think that Fredo's treachery ends with the botched Tahoe attempt*. I don't think he had any direct involvement in Roth's Havana plan or any plans thereafter the time of the Tahoe shooting. After all, he told Johnny Ola not to call him anymore. Remember?


*Granted, he could have informed his brother about Quesdadt's involvement, but he was greedy enough to sit back and watch Michael and Roth fight it out for control of gambling in the Western Hemisphere. If Roth wins, and Michael is either killed or sent to prison for perjury, then Fredo could possibly take over as don(?) of the Corleone Family; if Michael wins, then Fredo is still in the clear and comes out even. He's in a can't lose situation, until, his drunken blunder in front of that SUPERman.

I agree Nitti. I think we give Fredo too much credit for involvement beyond the Communion. Ola's phone call to him confirmed that. To experienced hands like Roth and Ola, Fredo's resistance to cooperating with them further shouted "Stay away from Fredo."

I agree 100%.

While I agree that Fredo knew it was going to be a hit, after the attempt failed, I think he was probably kept in the dark by Roth and Ola.

I am not so sure that Fredo did as Michael asked of him.

Fredo: How can I help Mike?
Michael: Act as if you know nothing.





I think he may have warned Roth about hit before the New Year.

"You guys lied to me -- I don't want you to call me anymore."

How do you conclude that Fredo knew it was going to be a hit or that he warned Roth?

First - I think that this part of the plot has got holes in it. FFC is laughing when he reads us debating it LOL

Second - How do we know what Fredo is refering too? It could be something else "you guys told me if was a sure thing and I would be in control after it was over"? I dunno...

After sharing a pm this morning I've concluded that Fredo had a hand in BOTH assassination plans -- in Tahoe AND Havana. Freddie was rather piss drunk at that Havana party wasn't he. Go back and re-watch the scene from when the clock strikes New Year -- notice him try to plant one straight on the lips of some women who was passing out "courtesy" kisses. Yes, Fredo is having a GREAT time. He even goes to get a stronger drink b/c the one he was holding just wasn't strong enough was it. He is in what he thinks is his soon to be new gambling Kingdom of Havana. It's too bad that that Castro had to butt in.

This is not directly related to this thread, but I didn't want to start an exclusive one.

Communions take place in May. Yet, when Mike goes to visit Roth immediately after Anthony's communion, Roth is watching a football game on TV. What gives?