Remember Vito said to Tom in the car after the "summit" that Bazzini was a pimp and can't outfight Santino. What did he mean? Did he mean Sonny had more men under him than Bazzini or what?

You're getting the dons mixed up. Vito said that (about being a pimp) about Tattaglia, not Barzini. Vito was saying that Tattaglia was a pimp, a low-life who dealt in prostitution and not smart enough to win a war against Santino.

You nailed that one on the head SC......Tattaglia was certainly a lower class of a Don.....lol. Just look at his apperance at the meeting of the heads of the five families....he just looked like a scum bag compared to the other Dons.

To add to both things said above, when you really look at it Santino was hoding his own in the war. I also believe that Vito knew that Tattaglia was not dumb enough to fight Santino on his own because Tattaglia himself knew that he was not strong enough or smart enough to take on Santino without the backing of the other families, especially Barzini.

I also believe that in the book, years before this war took place, there was an earlier attempt made on Vito's life and young Sonny took control of a regime during a 2 year war after the Don had been shot and he (Sonny) became a reputable leader and feared killer during that war. During that war he had made a respectable name for himself.

So Sonny had already been known as one of the most ruthless leaders when it came to war.


Don Cardi

Yes, Tattaglia was not as high up the other Dons....just look at that bad comb-over that he had.

As for Sonny holding his own, I don't know about that. Tom had a fierce arguement with Tom about how the Newspaper stories about McCluskey had caused the heat to be taken off the Corleone business, and that he ought to start making money again. Sonny's answer was that "business will have to suffer." Later Sonny told Tom "Pop had Genco, and look what I got." Later on Michael would tell Tom that he was no "wartime consigliere," and in GF II Michael berated Tom for not wanting to kill Roth,& Pentangeli. So arguably Sonny could have outfought Tataglia, and maybe even the Tattaglia-Barzini-Stracci-Cuneo alliance if he had a better consigliere.
The problem with this argument is that Sonny did NOT outfight them. Indeed they had enough cunning to take advantage of his bad temper and they had him killed, thus ending the war on their terms.
It took Michael's return and a lot of planning to get this reversed.

Sonny did well in the war against the families. Everyone on the outside, and probably some on the inside, thought that once the Don and Luca were out of the picture, the Corleone family would crack and crumble. And it didn't. Sonny held it together pretty well, and fought the war pretty well also. Sure business suffered, all of the families businesses suffered, it happens in a time of war. Sonny was irate at Tom because Tom was counseling him on business matters, not on war matters. Tom himself of course realized that the war would be costly, and many of the contacts and things that Vito had accomplished over the years for the business were at a great risk. And Tom knew this because of his close working relationship with Vito, because of his training from Vito. But when you really assess the situation and think about what was taking place, you realize that Sonny did a great job holding off the other families. Remember Sonny did this against 4 other families, without Luca Brasi, one of the most feared soldiers in the Corleone family. Sonny did a fine job holding off the other families under the circumstances.

Michael's plan really saved his father's life which was extremely important to the family. But even after taking out Sollozo, Santino fought and held off the other families, on his own, for a couple of years. He bought time for the Corleones. Bought time to allow his father to recover. For after Sonny's death, had Vito not been able to rise up from his bed, The Corleone's would have surely fallen under the thumb of Barzini and the other families.


Don Cardi

Great observation DT.

And I hate that God damn Barzini.

The novel said that, when the Don was shot in the Thirties, Sonny directed his troops and showed "a genius for urban guerilla warfare." He was a fierce warrior, but "a bad Don," as Vito said later.
Re. Tattaglia, if you parse what the Don said: "Tattaglia is a pimp. Alone he could never have outfought Santino" [emphasis added}. I took that to mean that "the pimp" lacked the force, the brutality, the generalship of Sonny, but Sonny wasn't smart enough to see the trap that Barzini had set for him via Carlo.

Hey Turnbull......did the Don get his speech problems from that first attempt??? Didn't he get shot in the throat or something???

Yes Turnbull, your point and Don T's points are both well taken and of merit. But while Sonny may not have been a "Good" Don, and was not a smart enough Don to see Barzini's trap coming from a mile away, he was a good Warrior during the war and you must admit that he did manage to hold off 4 families against The Corleones and not allow them to overthrow The Corleones.

Don Cardi

Yes, that is correct. He was shot in the chest by a member of some Irsih mob during the first war and Luca Brasi singlehandedly wiped out the Irish mob that was responsible for shooting Vito.


Don Cardi

You are correct DC, but I wonder how much of it may have come from the good operations run by Tessio and Clemenza. Recall the scene where Clemenza comes into Sonny's kitchen and says the word on the street is that the Don is dead....Sonny goes after Clemenza, and then Clemenza pushes right back as if to say "What the hell Sonny, don't pop your cork just cause I heard something." So I think Sonny overall sought their counsel, which itself was a wise thing to do, but it also reflects on the strength of the family.
Considering that Barzini took a hit with the Sollozzo investment down the tubes, and Tattaglia also took a hit losing his son, the Corleones, even without Luca may have had a leg up. Furthermore, since the police were clamping down on everyone, business had to be hurting for all the families.

It is also interesting that after the Corleones made the peace which brought Michael back, their position was considerably weaker. In Vegas Moe Green tells Michael that "the Corleone family don't have that kind of muscle any more'...and..."I talk to Barzini." And of course Tessio and Clemenza want to break off and form their own family, which of course triggers Tessio's betrayal.

Do you guys think Tessio would have betrayed the family if the Godfather was still in charge?? I mean, let's say Don Vito decides to do this Vegas thing.....would Tessio break away? Would Moe Green act soo tough??? Would Barzzini still try to take out the Don??? Chances are the answer would be yes.....but I think Michael didn't get the immediate respect from everybody when he took over the family.....especailly with the move to Vegas. No one would have questioned Don Vito, that is for damn sure....lol.

No I think it would have played out pretty much the same. Remember in his rant Moe Green points out that "The Godfather's Sick." Everyone knew Don Vito was "slipping" even before he got shot, and afterwords everyone knew that he was a dying man. It would not make sense for them to wait until his death to divide the pie, and thats what was going on.

Or made to appear to be weaker. That was all part of The Don's plan. Make the Corleone's appear to be weak. Buy time to rebuild the regimes and put some key people back into some key postions. Let Michael learn the business and transfer the political contacts over to him. Time was neeeded to do all of these things, and time was what was bought once Vito made the other families happy by agreeing to share his political contacts with the others for their drug business. Yes, even Clemenza and Tessio were made to believe that the family was weak under Michael. Tessio, as Michael said, being the smart one, acted upon what he was lead to believe and made a deal with Barzini. Clemenza however, stood loyal and I believe that right after Michael got confimation that Tessio was the traitor, he then let Clemenza in on the whole thing.

While Don Vito, rising from his sick bed, had definitely lost some of his power, I don't believe that the Corleone's were ever as weak as everyone thought that they were. When Vito makes the peace at the meeting, in a sense by giving in to the families he made them believe that his family was weak. But when he makes his speach, he also shows them that he still wields power when it comes to the the well being of his family.

I've always believed that Vito intentionally made the Corleone's look much weaker then they really were. All part of the plan.

It all camne down to saving the power in the family (Michael killing Sollozo and saving Vito ), sustaining the family (Sonny keeping the other families at bay during the war), retreating ( Vito making the peace with the families, giving in to their demands and allowing his son, his protege to return to him), regrouping ( Training Michael and putting his plan into action), and buying time to do so and then striking unexpectedly!

Never underestimate the power of your enemy. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. That is EXACTLY what Vito and Michael did before showing that they were still the all powerful and mighty Corleones!


Don Cardi

Great Point DC. You convinced me!

It's that Corleone way of getting your point across! It really works!



Don Cardi

Great point DC......that is why Michael told Kay that he had been back for a year before he contacted her. God I love this story......it is no wonder why this movie and story are the best ever!

DON CARDI!!! (SLAP ACROSS THE FACE) NEVER TELL ANYONE OUTSIDE THE FAMILY WHAT YOU'RE THINKING AGAIN!

Yes, that's the way we'd like to think of it--clever ploy by Vito to buy time. And it was, to an extent. But the fact is, Vito really had no choice at that point. When Tom told Vito that Sonny'd been killed, Vito realized in an instant that his position was untenable. When he said, "This war stops now," he wasn't saying, "Let's make it look like I'm surrendering," I believe he meant, "With Sonny gone, I can't fight this war by myself."
Yes, the overarching need was to bring Michael back, and that was Vito's goal. He paid heavily for it. He didn't just seem to be weakened--he was weakened. He had to do a 180 degree turnaround in his position on drugs. He had to retire.
And, in a deleted scene in the garden, Michael asks if Vito's foregoing vengeance for Sonny was a sign of weakness. "It is a sign of weakness," Vito replied.

DC, I don't have to "admit" Sonny's successes in war. I said Sonny was a fierce warrior, but a bad Don.

I pay Don Cardi to answer questions addressed to me. It frees me up to post long, boring topics on other boards.

You said that Sonny was a fierce warrior, but a bad Don?
Or did you quote Vito?


Don Cardi

I swear, on the souls of my grandchildren, that I will not be the one to break the peace we have made here today...

Yeah, what about your kid?


Don Cardi