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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: dontomasso]
#491215
06/03/08 01:46 PM
06/03/08 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276 Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
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Sol doesn't respect the Corleones at all. He thinks he can muscle his way into the family by killing Vito. He derides Clemenza as "fat," and then when he is suposed to be making nice with Michael one of the first things he does is insult his brother Santino saying "I hope you're not a hothead like your brother....you can't talk business with him." Then at dinner he insults Vito by saying he is old fashioned and not in tune with the times. He is even unrepentent about the assassination attempt....saying "I missed my chance." DonT... while I agree with you, I think he's more trying to show Tom that the corleones are in less control and he's in more control than what Tom's biased opinion may render, and he sees them (the caporegimes) as "small fries" in the grand scheme of things. Afterall... Sol was kinda right in some regard... he is being backed by the second (if not the first, to be frank) most powerfull family in NY, and he's already hit the head of the Corleone family. so he MUST be "smelling himself" and knowing that he is now in a very powerful position.
"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: Turnbull]
#491241
06/03/08 03:07 PM
06/03/08 03:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276 Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
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yeah... that's it TB! you're exactly right. he just wanted to relate to Tom (whether it was sincere or not) to get what he wanted.
"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: FrankWhite]
#491244
06/03/08 03:11 PM
06/03/08 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876 Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
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The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
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I aways thought that "Fat" Clemenza was his nickname, I always read that Fat was his nickname
 He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!" So what’s the labyrinth? That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: Turnbull]
#491259
06/03/08 03:55 PM
06/03/08 03:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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I think he was trying to create common ground with Tom at that point. I consider "fat Clemenza" in the same vein as Sol telling Tom, "the Don...was slippin'." He was trying to create an impression with Tom that the Corleones (but not Tom) were weak and old fashioned, and that the future belonged to him--and to Tom, who he would consider a partner in the drugs business. I don't think he wanted Tom as a partner any more than he wanted Sonny. What he wanted was to muscle his way into the Corleone family, break it up and pick up the pieces. If he was trying to con Tom at that meeting I think he failed. As bad a wartime consigliere as Tom may have been, he wasn't THAT stupid.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: dontomasso]
#491275
06/03/08 04:42 PM
06/03/08 04:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276 Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
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well... DT, did he really fail? He really didn't have any "convincing" to do on Tom, being that they were already in agreement about the issue in the first place.
"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: FrankWhite]
#491297
06/03/08 06:23 PM
06/03/08 06:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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well... DT, did he really fail? He really didn't have any "convincing" to do on Tom, being that they were already in agreement about the issue in the first place. I agree, Frank. Plus, he actually did what Sol asked him to do. Sol wanted him to convince all to make the deal. He said, "I'll try." He meant it. After he found out Vito had survived, he told Sonny, "If your father dies, you make the deal."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: Turnbull]
#491364
06/04/08 09:56 AM
06/04/08 09:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276 Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
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well... DT, did he really fail? He really didn't have any "convincing" to do on Tom, being that they were already in agreement about the issue in the first place. I agree, Frank. Plus, he actually did what Sol asked him to do. Sol wanted him to convince all to make the deal. He said, "I'll try." He meant it. After he found out Vito had survived, he told Sonny, "If your father dies, you make the deal." exactly TB... Tom had the mind that "this is business, not personal".
"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: MaryCas]
#495152
06/23/08 11:47 AM
06/23/08 11:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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I aways thought that "Fat" Clemenza was his nickname, I always read that Fat was his nickname On the FBI's Family Organization Chart, Peter Clemenza's nickname is Fat Clemenza. Sollozzo's use of the nickname could have just been a way to show Tom that he was familiar with the street names and habits of the Corleone family. In a small way a show of strength - knowledge is power. Interesting that Sollozzo knew Fredo was a non-starter, and assumed Michael was a "civilian," because when he refers to them he mentions them merely as the other kids. I assume Connie did not count because women were not directly involved in mob operations back in the day.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: MaryCas]
#495162
06/23/08 01:15 PM
06/23/08 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276 Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
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I aways thought that "Fat" Clemenza was his nickname, I always read that Fat was his nickname On the FBI's Family Organization Chart, Peter Clemenza's nickname is Fat Clemenza. Sollozzo's use of the nickname could have just been a way to show Tom that he was familiar with the street names and habits of the Corleone family. In a small way a show of strength - knowledge is power. hey... that's a really good observation and assessment. I think this is the answer! I never recognized that his name is "Fat Clemenza" on the chart (despite it being my screensaver for so long lol) although that could, very well, be a back-filled reference to relate to the audience who's familiar with the infamous speech by Sollozo... hmmm???
"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: olivant]
#495495
06/25/08 10:28 AM
06/25/08 10:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276 Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
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yeah oliv... I remember that, and I agree... I think it's just a way to flex muscle and show power by belittling (sp?) Clemenza
"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: FrankWhite]
#495535
06/25/08 11:48 AM
06/25/08 11:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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No question about that. As for FFC listing "Fat Clemenza" in the family chart shown at the Senate hearing: If you can look closely at the chart (SC has posted it here many times, and it appears on p. 215 of Lebo's book), you'll see that FFC was having some fun with the names and identities he listed. For example, his father's photo appears over the name "Carmine Coranda, alias The Plunge." A young guy, looking suspiciously like FFC in a high school photo, is listed as "Francis Forducci, alias The Kid." The same photo, flopped and blurry, appears over the name, "Gaetano Sirillo." And "Salvatore Plumari's" alias is "Sally Pee." Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza." 
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: Turnbull]
#495691
06/26/08 08:50 AM
06/26/08 08:50 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766 South of the Pinelands
MaryCas
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
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No question about that. Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza." TB, maybe you can confirm my thought.......Although I pointed out the "Fat Clemenza" nickname on the org chart, I always thought that it was a derogatory nickname, and the Mafia didn't do that. Nicknames were given for prominent features, such as, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, and various skills, abilities, or derivations.
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: MaryCas]
#495786
06/26/08 06:20 PM
06/26/08 06:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 228 Carmine Cuneo's Turf
Montauk
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 228
Carmine Cuneo's Turf
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I always read these scenes as Tom not giving a rat's behind about Sollozzo so much as being scared sleepless about a unified Five Families knocking at the door.
Montauk
We might be able to tape the gun behind it.
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: MaryCas]
#495828
06/26/08 09:45 PM
06/26/08 09:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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No question about that. Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza." TB, maybe you can confirm my thought.......Although I pointed out the "Fat Clemenza" nickname on the org chart, I always thought that it was a derogatory nickname, and the Mafia didn't do that. Nicknames were given for prominent features, such as, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, and various skills, abilities, or derivations. MC, I think that's true. But the issue is: who's giving the names listed in a law enforcement family chart--the Mob or the cops or the media? For example, if you looked at a Columbo Family chart of, say, 25 years ago, you might see Carmine Persico listed as either "Junior" (his nickname in the family) or "the Snake" (how the media and the cops referred to him). Joe Profaci's name on charts was "The Old Man," hardly a sobriquet he'd apply to himself, or tolerate within the family.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: MaryCas]
#495834
06/26/08 10:00 PM
06/26/08 10:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876 Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
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The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
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No question about that. Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza." TB, maybe you can confirm my thought.......Although I pointed out the "Fat Clemenza" nickname on the org chart, I always thought that it was a derogatory nickname, and the Mafia didn't do that. Nicknames were given for prominent features, such as, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, and various skills, abilities, or derivations. Have you seen Clemenza? I would most certainly say his size his him most prominent feature
 He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!" So what’s the labyrinth? That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: Santino Brasi]
#495975
06/27/08 06:31 AM
06/27/08 06:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766 South of the Pinelands
MaryCas
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
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No question about that. Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza." TB, maybe you can confirm my thought.......Although I pointed out the "Fat Clemenza" nickname on the org chart, I always thought that it was a derogatory nickname, and the Mafia didn't do that. Nicknames were given for prominent features, such as, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, and various skills, abilities, or derivations. Have you seen Clemenza? I would most certainly say his size his him most prominent feature Clemenza is the one who limps, right?  Clemenza's girth is certainly prominent, but calling him FAT could be derogatory. Unless you have examples of derogatory nicknames,like Tony "Zit Face" Goombah, or Willie "Shit-For-Brains" Pasta, I can't think of any off hand. Now if it was Big Pete Clemenza, that is nicer way of saying FAT.
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: MaryCas]
#496049
06/27/08 01:31 PM
06/27/08 01:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
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[quote=Turnbull]No question about that. Of course, "Fat Clemenza's" photo doesn't appear on the chart because Paramount and Richard Castellano couldn't come to terms. So, perhaps, FFC was taking a shot at the recalcitrant Castellano by listing him as "Fat Clemenza." TB, maybe you can confirm my thought.......Although I pointed out the "Fat Clemenza" nickname on the org chart, I always thought that it was a derogatory nickname, and the Mafia didn't do that. Nicknames were given for prominent features, such as, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, and various skills, abilities, or derivations. Have you seen Clemenza? I would most certainly say his size his him most prominent feature Clemenza is the one who limps, right?  Clemenza's girth is certainly prominent, but calling him FAT could be derogatory. Unless you have examples of derogatory nicknames,like Tony "Zit Face" Goombah, or Willie "Shit-For-Brains" Pasta, I can't think of any off hand. Now if it was Big Pete Clemenza, that is nicer way of saying FAT. [/quote] Clemenza did not limp. Rocco limped.
Last edited by olivant; 06/27/08 01:32 PM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: "That fat clemenza"
[Re: dontomasso]
#496241
06/28/08 11:30 AM
06/28/08 11:30 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766 South of the Pinelands
MaryCas
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
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"Crazy" Joey Gallo wasn't exactly a complimentary nickname. Good one! BTW, Olivant....didn't you notice the wink? I know Rocco limped. I was making a kidding point about an earlier post. 
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
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