Would Fat Clemenza have supported Tessio if he would have killed Michael and joined Barzini, or gone to war with him?? Well, maybe not go to war, but would he have gone against Tessio??? We know that Clemenza said "I hate that damn Barzini" but we know how it is in that business.
Ok.........GO! Let's here that input....

More likely Tessio and the Barzinis would have whacked Clemenza and taken away his business.

Good question!

IMO,I feel that out of loyalty to The Corleone family, Clemenza would not have sided with Tessio and Barzini. After all he was the one who said " I hate that goddamn Barzini." But in reality, with Mike gone, what choice would he really have had?

The "smart move" for Clemenza would be to go with Tessio and Barzini. For with both Vito and Michael gone, there would be no power whatsoever left in The Corleone family. Nothing. And I am sure that when Barzini and Tessio put this plan together, they figured that once Michael was killed, Clemenza would have no choice but to come under the Barzini family.

But I think that out of loyalty to Vito, Clemenza probably would have tried to take on Tessio and Barzini, but would have been unsuccessful.

After all when the two Caporegimes are complaining to Vito and Mike, what does Vito ask of them? He asks them to be a friend to Michael and do what he tells them to do. Obviously Clemenza did, and Tessio did not. One stood loyal, and the other did not.


Don Cardi

I suppose he would've had no choice. But I also agree with dontom that had the plan to assasinate Michael been successful, Clemenza's would've soon met a similar fate.

Apple

I think there would be a good possibilty that Clemenza would be whacked along with Michael so there wouldn't be any chance of revenge on clemenzas part, but with Tessio and Clemenza being life long friends maybe Tessio would tell Barzini that he would persuade Clemenza to join them and he wouldn't really have a choice.
I bet that Tessio and Clemenza would then split the Corleone family and start their own families with Barzini getting money from them both.
But maybe Tessio would hve Michael killed and Barzini then whacks both Tessio and Clemenza who knows that Barzini was a wily cat.

"That kids a real Joe Batters"
-Al Capone

What we all failed to consider is where Al Neri figures into this whole thing. Let's remember that Neri, according to the book, had his own regime also.
Now if Neri is still in the picture after a successful assassination of Michael, with his and Clemenza's regimes, there is a possiblilty that they may have been able to give Barzini a good fight.


Don Cardi

I'm not so sure about that. The Barzini/Tessio plan was probably to kill Michael thereby eliminating the Family Head and getting all below him in line. Anyone who dared to oppose did so at their own risk, and that includes Neri/Clemenza. They MIGHT'VE put up a fight but with both Michael and Vito gone would never have been able to stand for very long.

By killing not only Barzini but all other Family Heads, PLUS Tessio & even Carlo Michael did that very thing, only beat them to the punch and in volumes, and sent a clear message that he was not to be messed with.

Thanks to Vito's guidance only...Barzini could be messed with.

Apple

Now the question is did Neri KNOW of Michael's plan to wipe out the heads of the five families?

The reason that I ask is because if he knew, before hand, that Michael was going to take out everyone, he may have already built up his regime and had everything read to go.

Combine that with Clemenza's regime, Tom stepping back into the picture, and they may have actually given Barzini a good fight.

Who's to say that if Michael was killed by Barzini , that all of the other families would have approved of a move like that? Tom just may have been able to get 2 of the other families to back The Corleones.

Don Cardi

I don't think anyone would've stood up to or fought Barzini had he been able to eliminate Michael.

Tom was a civilian, not a wartime consiglieri...he would've done nothing, could've done nothing. This probably would've been a good time for him to sign up at some legit law firm, if of course one was willing to hire him.

Apple

Barzini knew that Tom wasn't on the muscle end of the family, so he would have let him live. My guess is that no law firm would touch him, however at the time he could have had a good gig with a labor union.

Tom may have not been a wartime consigliere, but he was NOT a civilian. And he still was a valuable Consigliere. Tom would have been the only one left who still may have had some of The Don's political connections and various contacts. Tom did have the experience of two wars under his belt, the inner ideas of Vito at his best, and he would have been somewhat of an asset to Clemenza and Neri in their fight against Barzini. Tom's advising Sonny to make the deal, and to stop the fighting, was actually the correct advice given the circumstances. Yes, not a wartime consigliere in the sense that he did not know how to give advice to fight in a war, but he was a logical consigliere, probably a better one at giving the correct counsil during peace or at keeping peace. But he could have and would have helped Clemenza if Mike had been killed.
Tom was far from being just a civilian.


Don Cardi

YIKES...don't get your panties in a twist, Don C !!!

My mistake, I was simply having fun with GF dialogue and got the following mixed up:

SOLLOZZO (to Tom) :
"Your boss is dead. I know you're not in the muscle-end of the family, Tom, so I don't want you to be scared."

CLEMENZA (to Sonny, about Michael):
"Aw, he'll be alright -- Sollozzo knows he's a civilian."

Many apologies for my confusion...

Apple

I guess the difference between a civilian and being on the muscle end of the family depends on what your definition of is is .

Actually a civilian would be someone who did not participate at all in the business, and someone on the muscle end would be someone who did not participate on hits...i.e. someone universally recognized as "not a wartime consigliere." This would mean that Connie lost her civilian status when she began lobbying for Vincent and and her "not one the muscle end" status when she gave the order to hit Zasa.

Chill lady, no one is getting there panties in a twist except you! No need for apologies.



Having a great discussion here, that's all!

Some Fodder for the weekend.

Don Cardi

You all have great points......I think Tom is being very underrated here as a wartime consiglieri, he never had to be......when Sonny was at war with the other families, Tom was trying to do the smart thing.....but let's remember....when Michael wante to kill Sollozzo and McClusky, Tom was in total agreement on spreading the dirt on the Captain to their payrolled newspaper people. He may not have been an in your face war time consiglieri, but he was the glue that held that family together......he even knew that Tessio was the traitor remember at Vito's funeral he says to Mike....."Do you know how they're gonna come at you???" "I always thought it would be CLemenza."
Let's give Tom some credit, very smart, very resourceful and loved Mikey just as much as anyone else. With Tom wanted revenge......they could have come up with something to take on the other families.

I believe we're ALL giving Tom credit, for all the things you state.

I don't however think he would have come up with something to 'take on' the other families. If anything, he would've come up with something to work with them, if not completely walked away from the business (which is what I think he would've done in the event of Michael's assasination).

After all, though not by blood...he was one of Vito's sons as well as the Consiglieri. That alone would have prevented him from any alliance with Barzini. But I don't think he would've gone to war. And I don't think the Corleone Family survivors would've invited him to, either.

Apple

Apple.....I am sure they all thought the same thing about Michael before joined the family.....Nice college boy, didn't want to get mixed up in the family business. No one thought Mikey would be any good in the family.....and look what he did. This is what I mean Apple......you can't say that Tom would look for a solution......Michael didn't, and he was more straight laced than Tom.
This is just all opinion though......the way I look at it, Tom probably would have joined up with Neri, Rocco, and Clemenza.....maybe even Fredo.....and I think with Tom's smarts they could have stayed alive......Tom knew more about the business than anyone....except Vito don't forget.

Clemenza would have gone down dying before he let Barzini take him under his thumb. He was very loyal to Vito and he also seemed to like Mike.

He Hated that Barzini.


DS

Okay, Clemenza has his regime, Rocco builds up a regime, and Neri is sent to take over Tessio's regime. That's alot of manpower to combine against Barzini if Mike is out of the picture. But with Mike out of the picture, there goes the leadereship and political support. As some have opined, Clememza would probably stay loyal to the Corleone legacy. Rocco and Neri though were relatively latecomers and more like businessmen. They would have made a deal for themselves.

One thing though. The novel says that the Tessio and Clemenza "families" sent their dons and caporegimes to Vito's funerals. An editing oversight?

THANK YOU !!!



By eliminating Michael Corleone as Head of the Corleone Empire Barzini's intent was to thereby obliterate any resistance from within the family. He intended to cut off the head of the dog instead of bothering with the tail (ever heard that expression?).

Michael turned around & did exactly what Barzini had intended to do. Did any of Barzini's people dare to fight back?

Apple

From what I understand Michael didn't have any of Vito's political support......remember when he was indicted??? No political help at all, except for a speech from Senator Geary.......his political support was cut more than half of what his dad had......so it would not matter. Besides, I am sure Vito was right....once they started dealing with drugs, a lot of that support went away.
Michael was the leader.....no doubts there.....but a bad Don can look good with a good Consilger (??) Tom could have kept that family alive with or without political help. He had the muscle and the brains...but we will never know, because Vito saved his baby boy....lol.
I wonder if Tom knew before Vito that Michael was in danger....he seemed to know without Michael telling him anything.......I wonder what else Tom knew before everyone.

Michael was never indicted. He was subject to indictment for perjury, but then Pentangeli's brother came to town and that was that.

You are right Dontom......thanks for the correction. He wasn't sweating that though was he??? He was more concerned about Roth......cool as a cucumber as usual. LOL

If I remember correctly, in the novel it says that Neri and Rocco, under the direction of Michael, had secretly began setting up their own regimes.

As for that Tessio and Clemenza passage that you quote from the novel, can you tell me what page that is on? I just do NOT recall that passage, but you may be correct.


Don Cardi

Now keep in mind that by political support Vito was probably refering more to support from New York state and city officials. He did have support in Washington, but that support was probably more in the form of Senators and Representatives doing things for Vito with which Vito could then assist those who wanted favors from Vito such as immigration bills (Enzo the Baker). It would be unlikely that such national politicians would put themselves on the line for Michael or Vito. Remember, the "Senator" didn't attend the wedding because the FBI would be there. Even Senator Geary was careful to laud the Italian people and not Michael. In the novel Michael says that he and his father firmed up the support of the more important people in Congress first along with the judges and party hacks and that he was confident that he had most of his father's political power in his hands.

It says " The FIVE FAMILIES sent their Dons and caporegimes, as did the Tessio and Clemenza families.

Interesting. It is explained that Tessio and Clemenza would be allowed to form their own familes, with Tessio getting the gambling and the docks in Brooklyn, and Clemenza getting the gambling in Manhatten and the families contacts at the Long Island racetracks, it is also said that in about a year from that meeting this would all happen.

And I believe that it is almost a year later when Vito dies. The novel says that during the next year Kay gave birth to a second child. The Don also suffered a slight heart attack within that year which took him a month to recover from. So at some point within that year both Tessio and Clemenza may have formed their own families, with Clemenza choosing to stay with the support of The Corleones.

This may also explain why Tessio is not physically with Michael at Vito's burial, and why Clemenza is. It also explains how it was possible for Tessio to make his plans with Barzini as he was really no longer under the scrutiny of Michael.

It's hard to tell how much time really goes by in the movie, but the novel is more explicit with the timeline.

Good observation with that passage Olivant.


Don Cardi

The book describes how, after the initial rise to power of the Corleone family post-Fanucci, the more clever Tessio was given a "free hand" in Brooklyn, while the loyal (but less savvy) Clemenza was yoked to the Corleone Family more closely. Tessio was much more accustomed to acting semi-autonomously, independently of the Don's control.

In my opinion, Clemenza and Tessio were Vito's pet dog and cat respectively. Clemnza the dog: loyal, strong, friendly, but subservient and in need of his master's direction. Tessio the cat: sly, clever, independent, free to roam with a more ambiguous and tenuous degree of loyalty.

So I don't think that the "dog" would ever have followed the "cat" and moved against the Don. A dog never abandons its master, whereas a cat will always act in its own interests.

If Tessio and Barzini had succeeded, they would probably have cut a deal with Clemenza. Clemenza would have reluctantly accepted the change in leadership, but not approved of it. No sense in whacking Clemenza unless they had a capable successor as caporegime.

Rocco was setting up a secret regime. That's what Tom meant when he asked Mike why he was being cut out of the action. Neri was Mike's bodyguard that was sent to take over Tessio's regime?

Now, this is confusing. What regime(?) if by the time of the Don's funeral Tessio already had his own family? Help!!

I don't think Clemenza would have gone over to Barzini's side but Tessio would appeal to Clemenza to 'retire' to Sicily rather than have to go to war with him. Frank Costello was allowed to retire after the unsuccessful attempt on his life. Whether Clemenza would accept this situation is another matter, and then of course one could enter a completely speculative discussion about the power of Pentangelli's regime in a wartime situation.

Al Neri seems to be personaly loyal to Michael. He would have to be eliminated as I don't think he would go to any other family.

A wise don would negotiate with Tom Hagen for his services, even though the other families looked down on him. But again, he was in a sense he was the 'son' most loyal to the tradition of Don Vito and I don't think he could go against the Corleones. So his fate in a post-Corleone family world is speculative. Tessio could take him on his personal attorney perhaps.

Well, after all is said and done, the novel recounts how all the most important "officials" of the Corleone family assembled on the mall where Mike tells them not to do anything for a few weeks until he figures out which way the wind if blowing. Among the listed officials is Tessio. I think this is another instance of Puzo sloppiness about continuity.