I guess I'm referring to Mario Puzo in numerous interviews speaking about the old-school Mafia (versus today's) having codes of honor, loyalty, dignity, strong family ties, etc.

The Corleones, as penned by Puzo, are all about devotion, loyalty, unbreakable binds, etc. etc.

So, here's where the paradox creeps in (for me at least).

OK, GRANTED, Sonny reveals that he's into the deal that Sollozzo's offering with his OOPS! during the meeting and might be in disagreement with his father's decision. But where in the Turk's head did he somehow calculate that he could simply kill the old man, and everyone would just shrug and say, "OK, now that he's out of the way, you were saying...?" I mean, COME ON!

Unless PUZO deep down felt that all this family stuff with the Mob was a bunch of hokum and that, at the end of the day, they're all cutthroat mercenaries who'd deal their mothers (or in this case, fathers) for the highest bidder. If THIS is the case, it would make Sollozzo's move quite logical, albeit STILL a major blunder in that the 5 shots didn't finish the job.

I dunno, that portion of the story always had me scratching my head.

IMO, the answer is probably less subtle than you're suggesting: Sollozzo was taking advantage of what he perceived as a c***k in the family's armor. Puzo suggested that Sonny was careless, not that family loyalty, honor, etc., were BS. For recent discussions about Sol and the drugs meeting, see here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=490960#Post490960

and

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post444618

I always questioned why Sollozzo thought that Sonny's malaproprism indicated that he would go for the deal. It could have just as easily been interpreted as Sonny's immature outburst about a relatively incidental part of Sollozzo's proposal. In any case, Vito's refusal had to be anticipated by Sollozzo who would have already planned his murder if he refused.

Basically Vito told Sollozzo "NO." Sollozzo then wanted to continue to negotiate and says something to the effect if it is finance Vito is worried about, the Tattaglias will agree to guarantee his investment. Sonny then jumps in and takes the bait, as if something were still negotiable. That tipped his hand.

I know. Sollozzo asks Vito if he's worried about security for his $2 million and that the Tattaglias will guarantee it. Since he didn't mention any % cost to the Corleones for that guarantee, Sonny would naturally be curious. But Sollozzo must have planned to kill Vito anyway, so Sonny's malaproprism would not have changed his course.

I wonder if Sollozzo was being honest on how the money was ging to be split. Obviously the Barzinis were in on it also, so maybe he was lying about the Tattaglia's cut.

Yes, his statement, "I'll take care of the Tattaglias out of my end," had a certain slippery quality to it. No honor among thieves. If Vito had gone for the deal, you can bet he would have had Tom looking over Sol's shoulder.

Vito's concern about drugs was that he would lose his political protection if that was his business, but in fact when they reached the compromise to regulate the sale of it the way they did, Vito did not appear to lose his political influence at all. Had someone thought this through earlier it would have avoided a lot of trouble. Personally I think Vito'r real reason for not going in on the deal was that he was not in control of it. He was just along for hte ride, and was more afraid that Sol would run amok than anything else.

...or that Sonny would run amok. The novel says Sonny wanted it because he was itching for some action on his own and to "get out from under his father's thumb."

Vito eventually consented to sanction drugs in order to bring Michael home and to carry out his plan for a day of reckoning.

Sollozzo welcomed Tom's discovery of his association with the Tattaglia's. That assured him that noone had discovered his alliance with Barzini.

I was always puzzled by Sol's "My compliments" to Tom after Vito asked about the percentage for the Tattaglias. It would be in Sol's favor for Vito to know that the Tats were backing him so Vito wouldn't think he was some two-bit punk (as Woltz would put it). I doubt Vito would have sanctioned the meeting if he didn't know that Sol was backed by another Don. And, as you point out, it helped hide Barzini's role.

In the meeting with Sollozzo, Vito says that he knows Sollozzo is a "serious" man. I think that's a nice way of saying 'I know you're a bully and you aren't going to stop until you get what you want'. Vito may be more cautious for good reason. He can't be sure of how far Sol is willing to go. Sonny is short-sighted and only thinking of the money. It's an interesting look into the chess game of gangsters, who in reality are clever, ruthless business men.

I'm thinking the Don smelled something with the Tataglia thing. I think the reason Vito said no had more to do with dealing with Sollozo and not trusting him rather than just being against drugs.

Maybe Sol's comment to Tom about the Don "slippin'" specifically his statement about his ability to "get to him"
had a double meaning, one being able to assassinate him, the other being having a one one one meeting without having advanced knowledge that Tat was backing him.

You're absolutely right Longneck :


"I'm a little worried about this Sollozzo fella. I want you to find out what he's got under his fingernails, ya'know. Go to the ah Tattaglia's, uh, and ah, make them think that ah you're -- you're not too happy with our family and -- and ah find out what you can."

If we lose the old man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength. The other New York families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long, destructive war. This is almost 1946. Nobody wants bloodshed anymore. If your father dies, you make the deal, Sonny.




I cant see how that could have happened.

What could have happened? That the other families would have sided with Solozzo to avoid a long, costly war? Or that Sonny would make the deal if hs father died?

Both were credible scenarios. It appears, from the film and the book, that the other families did take sides against the Corleones. The book says that, after the murder of Sol and Mac, the police clamped down on all Mob operations. The families sent an emissary to Sonny and Tom asking if they would give up the murderer. When they refused, "...the Five Families War of 1946" commenced.

Sonny's temper, and perhaps his guilt in knowing that his gaffe at the drugs meeting emboldened Sol to strike at Vito, may have hardened him against making any deal with Sol under any circumstances. But if Vito died, he'd be under tremendous pressure from Tom and the caporegimes to stop the war and get back to business. The Corleones couldn't run on empty indefinitely, and they'd need income from drugs and other sources to rebuild the police/political capital they'd lost due to Vito's death. I think it's at least possible that Sonny would have made a deal.

Yes... but someone would have to eventually have the master plan and strike first because one or more of family heads would get whacked. First on that list is get rid of Corleone family.... AGAIN.

I think Sonny would have caved into the pressure of drug dealing for two reasons : first he wanted in all allong anyway and second, the first time Hagen told Sonny "if the old man dies you make the deal" SOnny's rsponse was "thats easy for you to say he's not your father. The second time Hagen told Sonny to hold off and listen to what Sollozzo had to say Sonny agreed "to wait." It was MICHAEL who then said "We can't wait" so perhas Sonny was aware his temper had caused the whole mess and may have been more receptive to Hagen's suggestions.