You ask anyone that lived in a 5-10 block radius around the Gemini/Phils lounge who wasn't a degenerate gambler or druggie or mobbed up

That's the point they don't just prey on those people. They make people gambling addicts ( like my step Brother ) drug addicts ( like 2 of my cousins who are brothers ). I'm not making excuses for them just pointing out how these people can ruin you're life without mentioning Demeo.

All star line up tO say the least . Lol ... They even have a gangster social club mixed up of Westies, & Wiseguys . Lol

http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996-09-...prisons-inmates

These guys were known all over the East Coast as a Crew not to be fucked with , so much that the toughest crews were afraid to get involved with them . If Castelllano didn't get his own crew to whack him Roy would have been running that family eventually . No one else had the balls to try and kill one of them . That said , with that reputation which was known by civilians and mobsters alike why would you even think about borrowing money, placing bets, or getting drugs fronted to you by any of them . Honestly , especially when there were other crews that would just rough you up for late payments because they eventually wanted their money . That's the one thing I never got about gangsters , someone owes you a hundred K and you kill him ? How stupid is that ? Now there is no way you're getting the cash . I alsO would not say they created the druggies, gambling addicts, etc . They took advantage of a clientele that unfortunately for society is endless. One thing I will say that really sucked was for the people who intentionally avoided borrowing money from them for fear of the consequences , but indirectly ended up getting the money from them because whoever they'd borrow from borrowed from the Gemini crew . Or clients of people they whacked who's debts got inherited by the Gemini crew when they whacked the original debtor .

You still went too far. He was not apologizing fro them, he was giving us some stories he had of them that we have never heard. If he, or anyone, apologized for them I would condemn them.

Finally someone gets it ! I would never justify what any of them did . The only act I can actually justify is when my cousin Freddy got so pissed off when they killed Roy and my cousin Richie he ratted , as much as I hate rats , I guess Freddy figured he'd never get close enough to the twins to get revenge he might as well fuck them in other ways. Ironically none of Freddys testimony made it to any trial or really helped lock anyone up because he gave the Feds shit about dead people . Then he killed himself ... Or did he ?

In your original post you said, "They weren't all the scumbags the books make them out to be." Who were you referring to? Just DiNome? Or Testa and Senter as well? Because you mentioned the latter two in the same post and there's no way you could apply what you said to those two.

Here's a story I don't remember if it was in Murder Machine, it's been years since I read that rag and I never looked back . Regardless as my grandfather tells it Richie DiNome (Freddys brother) actually tried to hit Castellano . Problem is the people who asked him to do it were setting him up while at the same time hoping he'd actually get him . So richie shows up at Pauls place and before he could get a shot off got lit up by Pauls body guards. He stumbled out in the street wearing and he was wearing an NYPD TSHIRT (given to him by my uncle) and before Pauls crew could go out and finish him someone noticed the NYPD shirt and started screaming "cop shot cop shot" so within minutes the cops rolled up and they were unable to finish him off . It's believed that this is in fact what got him killed , and not Castellanos people either it was the people who asked him to hit Paul for fear that he would have given them up. Richie was a tough mother fucker he got shot like 15 times and still made it out of there alive. Oh and the story about him shooting himself in the hand when he was putting a silencer on a gun isn't completely accurate , what is left out is that he was basically playing tug o war with the gun because the person he was with told him he was putting it on wrong and went to grab it from him and Richie realized that person didn't know what he was doing so he grabs the gun back silencer first while the other meathead accidentally pulled the trigger, both were drunk I am told . I've also heard stories about would be crew members accidentally catching a bullet because these guys were drunk or high and playing Taxi Driver with a loaded gun with a hair trigger . Richie had a heart of gold , and he just wanted to be a part of what his brothers were doing . It's sad especially if you knew how they grew up .

From my personal experiences all of them treated neighborhood people right . That is until Roy was gone , he kept them in line . After they killed him all bets were off . I guess I should have posted they weren't ALWAYS the scumbags . But I have to say Freddy , and Roy were always good guys despite/outside of their extracurricular activities . At least good to family , friends , and the neighborhood.

DiNome, I really believe you that Roy was friendly to people who weren't involved in organized crime.
Now what I'm going to say isn't comparable at all to growing up in NYC, but even in a country as small as mine ( Belgium ) you can get into contact with people who are involved in organized crime. The part of the country were I live has a large Italian community. A friend of mine owns a bar dedicated to the football club AC Milan. There's one family living in that town who are known to be members of the Ndrangheta. Everybody knows that they sell heroin. But since I regularly visit the cafe, some members of the family have occasionly talked to me. And even though you know they do some bad stuff, they don't feel all that unpleasant when talking with them. They are pretty nice guys in fact ( I don't know if that's the right way to put it).
I also have another friend -an Albanian- whose dad spend more time in prison than at home, mainly for human trafficking. And we all know that human trafficking is a hideous crime, but still I visited my friend a couple of times and his dad was very friendly and welcoming to me.
All this is in no way comparable to the situation in New York, but when you say that they could be 'nice', I understand what you mean.

If Roy hadnt been whacked when he was then the cops would have busted him.
Dom Montigilio ratted later that year and Walter Mack was building his case stronger each day.
1983 would have been Roys last year as a free man!

Roy might have did some time behind the car ring , but that would have been about it . Montiglio was only beneficial to the case against Gaggi . Unless Gaggi flipped on Roy they wouldn't have been able to put him away for life. The only murder Montiglio could have implicated him in was the kid who broke Gaggis nose , and that wouldn't have done much seeing how he took part in the attempts as well as the eventual murder . You can tip off about murders and be a murderer yourself , but when all you can give up is a murder you helped commit the case would never have stuck . As for Freddy he didnt flip until after they killed Roy and Richie so Roy wouldn't have gotten pinched because of him . I think Walter Mack was quoted as saying something about it after they found Roy dead . Something along the lines of Roy getting whacked being easier than trying to build a successful case against him .

It's great that you can relate , and understand where I'm coming from . I don't condone it but I don't hold it against them/or pre judge them either . I have a long line of organized crime in my family , my mothers uncles, cousins, brothers, were and some still are all involved with LCN (they're off the boat sicilians) , her father was the only one who was legit he was actually a cop in Brooklyn , he worked in the 69 , 63, 67, 71, and 77 precincts . My dads family were all criminals they started out in the Camorra in Italy and eventually ended up with The Gambino, Lucchese, and Colombo families here . So it's kind of hard for me to hate on them when I see different sides during the holidays etc . Also when I was brought around the Gemini (lived a few doors down), the lounge,buon giorno's, the Ravenite, Bergin, Veterans, and ton of other hang outs as a kid and met a ton of these people and was given money , candy, toys, and baseball cards, learned how to play cards and shoot craps, by some of the "meanest" gangsters or most "ruthless" murders but to me they were just nice fat italian guys to me who taught me bad words in italian and spoiled us kids . Reading about all of them now and being in Law Enforcement myself it's obvious that I feel for their victims families but I never knew that side of them . One guy I will say was always kind of a dick was Gotti , Charles Carneglia always creeped me out too . He was nice but I'd throw any candy away or give it away if he gave it to us .

I've just finished murder machine and that is infact what Walter said, by killing Roy they made the case easier to make.

You wonder also, if he could have pulled off the 'fake his death and go to the Bahamas' plan Roy was working with his kid, in the time leading up to his death (outlined in Sins of my Father, I believe)

With all the indictments soon to come down, he wouldn't have had many folks to bother searching for him, or killing his family, etc.

I bet he could have been successful, but we will never know...

My situation isn't comparable to your situation at all, but I can definitely see what you mean. It's foolish to think that you can live somewhere, no matter how small your country is, without getting into contact in some way with organized crime. While in Belgium the Belgians themselves aren't known for being involved in lots of organized crime ( some tend to join Outlaw Motorcyle gangs however), Belgium is home to large Italian, Turkish, Moroccan, Dutch, Chechen, Albanian and Georgian Jewish communities. Within each of those communities there have been arrests of people who were involved big time in organized crime. Since I have one or more friends in each of those communities, I will always know some people who have relatives involved in OC.
On another note : over the past 5 years there have been 3 pedophiles caught in my small village only. And about 30km from where I live there was a serial rapist on the loose who was beginning to randomly kill people ( he made 3 known victims, but there might be more). Now I think that these pieces of **** are far more appalling than any mobster living in your neighborhood.

i dont think moroccons have organized crime just drug dealers at most

Moroccans do have a form of OC.
While a lot of Moroccans ( especially in the larger Belgian and Dutch cities) still behave like disorganized street-level robbers, a minority has -especially in Amsterdam- exploited their links with hashish barons based in the Rifian areas ( since almost all Moroccans in Belgium and the Netherlands are of Rifian origin). While bringing in hashish was previously something Dutch criminals did, some Moroccans in the diaspora have also began to organize themselves and start bringing in hash, as well as cocaine.
But yes, most are still disorganized, but an increasing lot is beginning to organize themselves, just like an increasing number of Algerians are beginning to do in France.

Child abusers , Rapists of any kind, all deserve to die slow and painful deaths .

From what I understand there are certain Moroccan organizations in Morocco and abroad that deal drugs and help fund terrorism . It's pretty disgusting to think such a beautiful place that generates a lot of its tourism income from Americans ends up breeding terrorists that want to destroy America .

It's a shame really that Moroccans, Algerians, Lebanese and Pashtuns have terrorists within their communities ( terrorists, in my honest opinion, are retarded. No matter the university degree they may have) because I've also met a lot of very cool people from their communities.
And they also have some splendid looking girls ( no kidding)

Terrorists are the most hypocritical beings on the planet . How do you justify bombing/killing in the name of your religion or homeland yet you do it within crowds o people from your religion/homeland thus makin the majority of the casualties of your cause the people you are supposedly representing ? Like take Muslims for instance , blowing up Mosques which only kills Muslims ? Seriously how stupid can you be ? Or the IRA blowing up and destroying Northern Ireland , and while they may kill one or 2 English cops for the most part they're killing the Irish . Fucking retards

And the fact stays that no group has ever achieved anything with terrorism. IRA, ETA, Tamil Tigers,...all failed continuously.

Yeah the IRA have basically admitted defeat, apart from small sects of lunatics.

The REAL IRA, as well as Al Qaeda In The Islamic Maghreb, Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad are becoming nothing more than drug and weapon traffickers, human smugglers and extortionists. I think they engage more in criminal activities than in terrorism nowadays.

It sort of depends on how you define "terrorism" and "achievements".
France does not rule Algeria or Vietnam today, in part because of violent acts that were called terrorism at the time. The same is true of Great Britain and Palestine/Israel. You could even say that the British settler and government counterrevolutionary response in Kenya was particularly brutal terrorism which succeeded in putting down the revolt but failed long term in keeping Kenya under direct British control.

So sometimes violence/terrorism works; sometimes it doesn't.

Moroccans do have a form of OC.

it depends what you mean for 'organized crime'
a bunch of people smuggling hashish dont are so organized to me just dealers
according to italian police moroccan and north african gangs in general are disorganized and they are not even close to have the caratheristic typical of mafia groups

Well, if you put it that way I think almost no crime group comes even close to the Italians.

i think italian mafias yakuza clans and chinese triads are by far the most organized crime groups worldwide

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that.
There are a lot of other ethnic gangs that are labeled as 'organized crime', but they aren't as organized as the Mafia, Yakuza or Triads. Eventhough I think the Solntsevskaya Bratva is also very organized.
I think the Albanians, Mexicans,...might be a tad overrated. But I wouldn't mess with them either.