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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: JCrusher]
#590761
01/14/11 04:44 PM
01/14/11 04:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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He certainly didn't want anything to happen to his brother. That's a matter of opinion. There are many threads here on Fredo's guilt/innocence. It's probably the single most debated topic on these boards.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Turnbull]
#590811
01/15/11 06:35 AM
01/15/11 06:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 20 NY (upstate)
Kuklinski
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 20
NY (upstate)
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The scene with Bonasera shows a certain conceit on Vito's part. Bonasera wasn't ready to accept the type of "godfather" relationship that his other petitioners had with him. Bonasera wanted to treat him as a hired gun. Obviously Vito wasn't going to let Bonasera use him that way. But, IMO, he reinforced his terms by demanding that Bonasera call him "godfather" ("you don't even think to call me Godfather..."). Bonasera totally disrespected the Don by asking him to kill for money. Vito was not a thug, or as he put it, "We're not murderers." Of course, that doesn't mean that they wont do murder, but that was done out of what they saw as necessity, and was therefore not seen as murder by them. More as an extension of self-defense. By "not thinking to call him Godfather" he was displaying his own arrogance. Vito did not "force" him to say it, but called him on his disrespect. It's like asking your new girlfriend's father for a favor, and not thinking to show him the respect of calling him Mister. But because Vito was a businessman, who collected friendships, he was willing to forgo the signs of disrespect, if Bonasera relented, giving him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he was simply ignorant, and not intentionally disrespectful. Which actually may have been the case. For the un-initiated, it is actually quite easy to offend these "men of honor" even today, without realizing it. Either by making assumptions based on rumors or crap you see in the movies, or even in other ways that you just didn't even think of because you are not in that class of people. Another example might be something like giving a thumbs up sign to someone in Thailand, you would actually be telling them eff you.
“I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.” ~John Gotti
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: JCrusher]
#590813
01/15/11 06:51 AM
01/15/11 06:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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Vito was not a violent mobster but he still would use violence to get wahat he wanted. I'd say the use violence to get what you want is a simple but good definition of being a mobster. [quote Kuklinski] Vito was not a thug, or as he put it, "We're not murderers." Of course, that doesn't mean that they wont do murder, but that was done out of what they saw as necessity, and was therefore not seen as murder by them. More as an extension of self-defense.[/quote] They lied to themselves all the time. Of course, they were murderers. They needed this whole honor-myth (as well as the "It's only business"-talk) to disguise and justify their crimes.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: JCrusher]
#590843
01/15/11 03:43 PM
01/15/11 03:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Vito was not a violent mobster but he still would use violence to get wahat he wanted. Wow! That's one for the psychiatric journals. Ok smartass. What I meant was he was mostly low key. he wasn't a Gotti type of mobster who would yell and scream. I not defending him at all. I'm talking about his personality Ok, let's not start with the name calling or the negative categorizations. Feel free to debate and disagree, but please try to do so without getting personal.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Danito]
#590859
01/15/11 07:02 PM
01/15/11 07:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 20 NY (upstate)
Kuklinski
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 20
NY (upstate)
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They lied to themselves all the time. Of course, they were murderers. They needed this whole honor-myth (as well as the "It's only business"-talk) to disguise and justify their crimes.
Yes and no. This is the dilemma which haunted Michael all of his life. Was he really doing murder, or was he protecting his family? Is it really murder to kill someone who is trying to kill you or your family? I think that the murder of is brother is really the only one he felt was a mistake.
“I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.” ~John Gotti
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: olivant]
#590866
01/15/11 07:33 PM
01/15/11 07:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 20 NY (upstate)
Kuklinski
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 20
NY (upstate)
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Do you define murder morally or per statute? By statute, yes, it is murder to kill someone who is trying to kill you unless the attempt to kill you is imminent. Many states, in fact, maintain the stautory requirement that one tried to flee an attacker before using lethal force. Morally, it may be different, but to bring morality into it regarding a mafioso is a stretch. As has been discussed many times on this Board, Mike eschewed any semblance of morality (or law) by leading the life he did and choosing not to leave it behind. I dont think Michael was an immoral person. He was trying to protect his family. Which is what drew him into the life in the first place. He hated "the life." Here's a true story, from Poughkeepsie NY that went down this past year. A gunman opened fire on and killed another man in the parking lot of the Rip Van Winkle housing building. Cold blooded murder? Hardly. Looking back, there was a history between the two. In fact, they had each already been sent to state prison for shooting one another in earlier confrontations. It was inevitable that one day one would kill the other. So the shooting could be seen as sort of pre-emptive self-defense. "This is chess, it ain't checkers!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gafALL-R1nIHere a link for a brief on the shooting... http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/2010/08/27/blotter/doc4c772bb58e669630871481.txt
Last edited by Kuklinski; 01/15/11 07:37 PM.
“I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.” ~John Gotti
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: olivant]
#590886
01/15/11 11:52 PM
01/15/11 11:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466 Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
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Do you define murder morally or per statute? By statute, yes, it is murder to kill someone who is trying to kill you unless the attempt to kill you is imminent. Many states, in fact, maintain the stautory requirement that one tried to flee an attacker before using lethal force. Morally, it may be different, but to bring morality into it regarding a mafioso is a stretch. As has been discussed many times on this Board, Mike eschewed any semblance of morality (or law) by leading the life he did and choosing not to leave it behind. No one with any sense of self respect would try to run away from an attacker just to avoid killing them--I don't care what the law says. Where is the honor in that? If the attacker didn't want to be killed, they shouldn't have attacked in the first place! Regarding Michael, I disagree that he (or Vito for that matter) were immoral or evil people. And even if one totally abhors everything about organized crime, one should remember that if Michael hadn't become the new godfather, someone else would have. It's not as if by choosing to be legitimate he would have put an end to the Corleone crime family. The family and its activities would have gone on--just under someone else, perhaps Clemenza or Pentangeli.
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#590934
01/16/11 10:44 AM
01/16/11 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
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No one with any sense of self respect would try to run away from an attacker just to avoid killing them--I don't care what the law says. Where is the honor in that? If the attacker didn't want to be killed, they shouldn't have attacked in the first place!
Amen.  Well in the US it depends on the state and the circumstances. Some states have castle law doctrines such that if someone attacks you in your home or car you are under no requirement to retreat. I generally agree with those laws. On the other hand we don't allow settling of beefs. If there is someone trying to kill me the legal thing to do is to call the police and have them arrest the assailant. Self-defense (in Michigan anyway) is usually only allowed in imminent defense of life. I am not allowed to run after a robber or assailant and shoot them down and then claim self-defense. I am not allowed to shoot someone on the street because we had issues going back years. I can not shoot someone because of what they might do. That's logic for the non-criminal. Criminal logic is of course quite different and can be very tempting/intoxicating when depicted fictionally on screen or in print but in real life we should remember that such an expanded claim of self-defense (pre-emption) could cause a lot more murders. In prison if someone blows a kiss at me, stares at me too long, cuts in line for the phone or takes food from my plate it is entirely rational that I would then assault or attempt to kill them. To not do so would be to invite further abuse, rape or death. That would indeed be self-defense. But in "real life" that logic makes no sense and is totally destructive of any sort of society. Michael initially did the wrong thing for the right reasons (or maybe the right thing for the wrong reasons) but whatever his good intentions may have been he changed from a straight laced college grad to a man who murdered his own brother, oversaw the degradation of hundreds of thousands via narcotics and prostitution and killed other men to take their goods for himself. This all may have been justified under the rules he was operating under but that doesn't make it "good" nor does it mean that he never had choices.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Kuklinski]
#590936
01/16/11 11:22 AM
01/16/11 11:22 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I dont think Michael was an immoral person. Putting ALL else aside, this man ORDERED THE MURDER of his own brother!!! He was trying to protect his family. Which is what drew him into the life in the first place. On this you are correct. He made a conscientious choice to protect his family fully knowing that he would be a part of "the life" by making the choice that he made. Did he really hate the life? I'm not so sure about that. Michael was an ego maniac. Heck even before he jumped into the life he sat there and basically bragged to Kay about how powerful his father and his family was. I always felt that the "That's my family Kay, it's not me" line was a crock of shit. Michael was also a control freak. For the most part Micheal loved the power and the perks that went along with the life. The power that went along with being the boss of bosses, the big Don, etc. excited Michael.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Don Cardi]
#590937
01/16/11 11:33 AM
01/16/11 11:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466 Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
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I dont think Michael was an immoral person. Putting ALL else aside, this man ORDERED THE MURDER of his own brother!!! He only did so after he thought (probably correctly) that that brother knowingly conspired to kill HIM!! To not mention that fact is grossly unfair. It's like saying "Harry Truman was a mass murderer because he ordered the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki" as though this occurred in a vacuum, without any mention of the larger context in which it took place.
Last edited by VitoC; 01/16/11 11:48 AM.
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: VitoC]
#590950
01/16/11 01:20 PM
01/16/11 01:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I dont think Michael was an immoral person. Putting ALL else aside, this man ORDERED THE MURDER of his own brother!!! He only did so after he thought (probably correctly) that that brother knowingly conspired to kill HIM!! To not mention that fact is grossly unfair. It's like saying "Harry Truman was a mass murderer because he ordered the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki" as though this occurred in a vacuum, without any mention of the larger context in which it took place.  VitoC, I just love your analogies!  1)Again, this topic is not one that should morph into a political debate for this thread. Let's save those political debates for the General thread. 2) The debate as to if Fredo knowingly conspired to set up his brother to be killed is one that has been debated for years on these boards. Personally I do NOT think that Fredo INTENTIONALLY or KNOWINGLY conspired with Ola and Roth to have his brother Michael killed. 3)Please don't sit here and tell us that Michael was not an immoral person. There are several definitions of the word immoral and ALL describe and define what Michael Corleone became. a) Tending to corrupt or resulting from corruption.b) unscrupulous OR unethicalc) deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrongd) dishonest
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Don Cardi]
#590990
01/16/11 07:25 PM
01/16/11 07:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466 Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
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I dont think Michael was an immoral person. Putting ALL else aside, this man ORDERED THE MURDER of his own brother!!! He only did so after he thought (probably correctly) that that brother knowingly conspired to kill HIM!! To not mention that fact is grossly unfair. It's like saying "Harry Truman was a mass murderer because he ordered the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki" as though this occurred in a vacuum, without any mention of the larger context in which it took place.  VitoC, I just love your analogies!  1)Again, this topic is not one that should morph into a political debate for this thread. Let's save those political debates for the General thread. 2) The debate as to if Fredo knowingly conspired to set up his brother to be killed is one that has been debated for years on these boards. Personally I do NOT think that Fredo INTENTIONALLY or KNOWINGLY conspired with Ola and Roth to have his brother Michael killed. 3)Please don't sit here and tell us that Michael was not an immoral person. There are several definitions of the word immoral and ALL describe and define what Michael Corleone became. a) Tending to corrupt or resulting from corruption.b) unscrupulous OR unethicalc) deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrongd) dishonest I stand by what I said, Don Cardi. If you reject it, that's up to you. But don't give me this condescension--the whole purpose of this board is for people to exchange their opinions. This is not a matter of factual correctness. I'm not saying the Holocaust never happened or that the earth is flat. I'm giving a value judgment about someone. Frankly, I don't care about what some dictionary has to say about what constitutes "immoral." One of the definitions you provide is purely subjective on its face--"deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrong"? Really? Up until the last few decades a white person who dated/married an African-American was "immoral" by that standard. Furthermore, one could view a person as doing a number of things that are immoral, even seriously so, but not label the person as immoral on the whole. This could be true for any number of reasons--including believing that the immoral actions are partially mitigated by context, and/or believing that other aspects of the person's behavior are good and praiseworthy. Lyndon Johnson's political career included, among other shady things, blatant election fraud in Texas. But I don't consider Johnson an immoral person either, because 1) the Texas political culture was such that one had to be willing to do things like that to survive at that time, and 2) Johnson had numerous redeeming features, particularly his support of civil rights, that I believe outweighed his dark side. And I don't see anything inappropriate about my Michael/Truman analogy. If the shoe fits... I remember Turnbull, in a different context, making an analogy between the two men.
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: VitoC]
#591006
01/16/11 09:31 PM
01/16/11 09:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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And I don't see anything inappropriate about my Michael/Truman analogy. If the shoe fits... I remember Turnbull, in a different context, making an analogy between the two men. I don't remember that, Vito. If you find it, please post it. Part of Philosophy 101 is "ethical relativism." By that standard, Michael was probably no worse than any other Mafia Don, and LBJ was no worse than any other vote-stealing politician. Michael made that exact point in GF when he wooed Kay in New Hampshire: "My father is just like any other man with responsibilities for people...Governors and Senators don't have people killed? Now who's being naive, Kay?" But, IMO, we have to step back and ask, toward what end? A killer's still a killer, and a crooked politician's still a crooked politician. Someone who justifies moral lapses to advance his cause is likely to keep on doing just that, with even graver results down the line.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Don Cardi]
#591114
01/17/11 10:31 AM
01/17/11 10:31 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718 Berlin, Germany
Danito
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
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I always felt that the "That's my family Kay, it's not me" line was a crock of shit. Michael was also a control freak. I think, Michael was at time really apart from his family. He disliked the way, his father handled things. He probably hated Luca. He wanted a modern life, have a modern wife. He didn't like Johnny Fontane. Only when is father is shot, he realizes that he's the only one who has the guts, the heart, the brain & the talent to handle these things.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Danito]
#591163
01/17/11 07:19 PM
01/17/11 07:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,099
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,099
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I always felt that the "That's my family Kay, it's not me" line was a crock of shit. Michael was also a control freak. I think, Michael was at time really apart from his family. He disliked the way, his father handled things. He probably hated Luca. He wanted a modern life, have a modern wife. He didn't like Johnny Fontane. Only when is father is shot, he realizes that he's the only one who has the guts, the heart, the brain & the talent to handle these things. Well lets be fair the reason Mike became a good boss was because of Vito. Vito was the one who tole him about a traitor otherwise he would of been killed. Also Mike could have normal life but I agree with the other post he was a control freak and the power turned him into a evil psychopath
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: VitoC]
#591171
01/17/11 08:33 PM
01/17/11 08:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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I stand by what I said, Don Cardi. If you reject it, that's up to you. But don't give me this condescension--the whole purpose of this board is for people to exchange their opinions.
I have not spoken to you in a condescending way by any means. Not my intention at all. Yes, the whole purpose of this board is for people to exchange opinions, interpretations and ideas. No doubt about it. And there are appropriate threads that have been set up for all of us to do so with those exchanges and debates being posted according to topic that the thread was specifically created for. This is a thread created for discussions and debates regarding the Godfather Trilogy Movies. While I understand that you were trying to make analogies between fictional characters and real life, you need to understand that all I was trying to prevent was having this debate about the movie and it's characters turn into an all out real life political debate. That's all. One of the definitions you provide is purely subjective on its face--"deliberately violating accepted principles of right and wrong"? Really? Up until the last few decades a white person who dated/married an African-American was "immoral" by that standard. Furthermore, one could view a person as doing a number of things that are immoral, even seriously so, but not label the person as immoral on the whole. This could be true for any number of reasons--including believing that the immoral actions are partially mitigated by context, and/or believing that other aspects of the person's behavior are good and praiseworthy.
Lyndon Johnson's political career included, among other shady things, blatant election fraud in Texas. But I don't consider Johnson an immoral person either, because 1) the Texas political culture was such that one had to be willing to do things like that to survive at that time, and 2) Johnson had numerous redeeming features, particularly his support of civil rights, that I believe outweighed his dark side.
And I don't see anything inappropriate about my Michael/Truman analogy. If the shoe fits... ....But by the post that you made above it is quite obvious that you were not able to realize that all I was doing was trying to prevent this from turning into a real life political debate. And I don't see anything inappropriate about my Michael/Truman analogy. If the shoe fits... I remember Turnbull, in a different context, making an analogy between the two men.
Can you please find that post? I, like TB, would love to see it!
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Don Cardi]
#591175
01/17/11 09:06 PM
01/17/11 09:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
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I stand by what I said, Don Cardi. If you reject it, that's up to you. But don't give me this condescension--the whole purpose of this board is for people to exchange their opinions.
I have not spoken to you in a condescending way by any means. Fredo: “Condescended to me. You're one of the longest tenured Board members and you're condescending to me. Did you ever think about that -- did you ever once think about that?” Michael: “That's the way the Board works. “ Fredo: “It ain't the way I work! I'm smart -- not like everyone says -- not dumb, smart and I don't want to be condescended to. “
Last edited by olivant; 01/17/11 09:08 PM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Why "Godfather"?
[Re: Turnbull]
#591180
01/17/11 09:45 PM
01/17/11 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902 New York
SC
Consigliere
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Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
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And I don't see anything inappropriate about my Michael/Truman analogy. If the shoe fits... I remember Turnbull, in a different context, making an analogy between the two men. I don't remember that, Vito. If you find it, please post it. I was curious about this, too. I think this is the reference below (the linked post and some following it): CLICK HERE
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