Tom Hagen was the lower for the corleone family long than we ever know..
Micheal put him out of business in the 2nd part..why..
he didn't give good reasons for putting away such a talented lower and great person..i wasn't with micheal on this..
What do you guys think about it..?
and are you with,or against micheal?and why?


Puzo

I assume you mean "lawyer." Actually, Tom functioned, strictly speaking, as the family's "lawyer." Michael did not use him as the consigliere. Michael said so near the end of GF: he said that Tom would be "our lawyer in Nevada," and then told Tom: "You're out [as consigliere]." Big difference between being consigliere and being a lawyer.

Why did Michael not use Tom as consigliere? Three reasons:
1. Tom was Vito's choice as consigliere--not Michael's.
2. Tom was "not a wartime consigliere," as Michael said in GF. He did not have the "Sicilian cunning" that Genco Abbandando, his predecessor, had (Genco was not a lawyer--he was consigliere).
3. Michael, the hyper-controller, was his own consigliere.

In the Corleones as dysfunctional family theory, Vito groomed the intelligent, analytical orphan Hagen to provide the intellect that his natural son Santino lacked. Hagen's brains became redundant when Michael took over as boss.

Hey guys, my first post on this side of the boards.

Does anybody think that another reason for Michael moving Tom out as consigliere was his "sectionizing" of the family.

He explains this to Tom after the hit attempt in GFII. (Their conversation about Tom being the only person Michael can trust)

Did Mike think that far ahead at the start of his tenure as the boss?

I rhink Michael was BS-ing Tom in that scene:
Michael hadn't changed his view that Tom was "not a wartime consigliere." What did change was that, immediately after the Tahoe attack, Tom was (as Michael said) the only one he could completely trust. He needed Tom--temporarily--to manage things while he tried to determine who the traitor was. So he fed Tom all that crap about how he "loved" him, "you're my brother," "kept things from you because I love you and respect you," etc. He succeeded in playing Tom like a violin--Tom practically blubbered with gratitude to be "let back in" to Michael's good graces.

But, as we saw, as soon as Michael returned from Cuba, having found the answer to the all-important question--who was the traitor in the family--he immediately returned to treating Tom like s**t.

I still think that what micheal did was wrong..Tom handled many difficult jobs for Vito..and for mike as well..
His ideas were always been taken..not mentioning his love for the family..beside that he was always with vito..so micheal should've taken that as advantage..

(Mr.)Turnbull..since you've been handling the correction for my spelling..
would you tell me what (BS-ing) means??

Puzo

Bull shit - ing

Yes, Tom was all the things you said--and his loyalty was never in question. But, fairly or not, Michael Michael may have blamed him for Sonny's death. Yes, I know, Sonny was hot-headed and fell right into the assassination trap that was laid for him. Yes, he tore away from the compound in his car before Tom could stop him--and Tom sent a car after him. But Michael probably felt that if Tom had been a Sicilian, he would have anticipated that Carlo would never have accepted the public beating and humiliation Sonny had given him without plotting revenge. And, fairly or not, Michael may have blamed Tom for Kay's abortion because it "happened on Tom's watch," while Michael was away after leaving Tom in charge.

One thing is clear: Tom really screwed up by not knowing that Frankie Pentangeli had survived. Michael says, "Frank Pentangeli is alive!!!" Tom says, "Our people with the New York detectives said he was half-dead, scared, talking out loud about how you betrayed him..." DUHHH, Tom: Where were you when your people with the New York detectives captured Frankie? And why did you counsel your one and only client, Michael Corleone, to perjure himself before a Senate committee? Small wonder Michael didn't have too much confidence in Tom's abilities as consigliere.

You might be right about frankie Pentangeli..I agree that Tom is not a perfect man after all..and i respect your opinion about him..
but i wouldn't blame him for Kay's abortion! Tom is a "lawyer",he's not a nurse or a doctor..so if i was micheal i wouldn't put Tom in charge of such matters..
I wouldn't blame him for Sonny's death as well..
Whether Tom anticipated Carlo's revenge or not..He had nothing to do..Carlo was a part of the family (micheal's sister's husband) so it wasn't in Tom's hand to take action against him..He should've brought mike's attention..yes..but he could've done nothing without The GodFather's instructions..
maybe tom didn't has the Sicilian blood in his vanes..
but he surely had a Sicilian brain..
I'll not talk about what good things that tom did because i'm sure that you know them all even better than me..

Puzo

Usually, when Tom's subject pops up for the 100th time, I post this link.

Why keep Tom Out?

I wouldn't blame him either, Puzo. I was trying to put myself into Michael's ultra-controlling frame of mind. From Michael's viewpoint, Tom should have sensed that Carlo would betray Sonny in revenge for the beating and humiliation. And Michael may have resented Tom's "failure" even more because Michael might have believed that, if Sonny had lived, he (Michael) could have returned to "civilian" life instead of having to take over the family. As for Kay's abortion: Michael might have blamed Tom because his instruction was that Kay was not to leave the compound. Of course, she would have had a doctor visiting her for normal pregnancy checkups at the compound. With her money, she could easily have paid a doctor to abort her during one of those visits, and then claimed it was a miscarriage. Not Tom's fault, I agree; but Michael would have blamed him anyway.

Well..like i said then..it's mike's mistake..
But the Don had alot of stuff to think about..so he just needed someone to blame in every family matter..and poor tom had most of it..
i remembered that mike said that he don't want any of his father's friends with him..that is a reason i clearly remember for getting tom off..but why?? why would mike want that??
I'd love to hear an answer

Puzo

Where and when did he say that?

Turnbull, I assumed that you have every version of the Godfather movie that was ever made? Don't you have the uncut, unedited, un-divided, un-seen, ad-libbed variation that was released earlier this year?

MICHAEL

You're not a wartime Consiglieri, Tom. Things may get rough with the move we're trying.


VITO CORLEONE (sitting next to Tom on the couch)

Tom -- I advise Michael. I never thought you were a bad Consiglieri. I thought -- Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace. Michael has all my confidence, as - as you do. Michael has all of my friends with him - if he chooses to do so. But there are reasons why you must have no part in what is going to happen.


TOM (to Michael)

Maybe I could help...


MICHAEL (curtly)


You're out, Tom.

***EXTRA FOOTAGE FROM THE TRILOGY & SAGA***

[In the un-cut, un-edited, un-seen,ad-libbed variation release and Epic: Don Vito pats Tom on the shoulder, gets up, and walks over to Michael. He pats Michael on the chest, then his face. Then he leaves the room and Michael sends Neri out to call Tom back into the office]

MICHAEL

Things are going to change Tom. Pop's people? They're out too.

Tom, pops way of doing things is over -- it's finished. Pop is just an old man now, and so are his people. He's no longer the force that he was back in the old days. I don't want any of my father's friends with me on this. Even he knows that. I mean in five years, the Corleone Family is going to be completely legitimate and I don't want any of these old bastards standing around waiting getting in the way of our legitimacy. Trust me. That's all I can tell you.


Don Cardi

Correct me If i'm wrong..
micheal wanted to take his father's friends out so they don't try to take the corleone's family down after Vito dies..am i right?
and what did micheal mean when he said : "You're not a wartime Consiglieri, Tom. Things may get rough with the move we're trying."
What's that move micheal was talking about??
and why wouldn't tom be able to handle it??

Puzo

The "move" was the Corleone family's move to Las Vegas, which they planned to make their new base of operations, and Michael felt that the elimination of Moe Greene - against Moe's will - might cause things to get rough.

And since Michael felt that Tom was "not a wartime consigliere" he apparently thought that things might get a little too rough for Tom to handle.

There was another bit of dialog that you left out:
"Y'see, Tom, I wanna run high-class establishments in Nevada. 'Casinos with Class,' that's gonna be our motto. Can't have a buncha ol' greaseballs around the place, growing tomatoes in our gardens, ordering ah-dreep in our restaurants, playing bocce in our parking lots. To paraphrase Roth's pal Batista: 'We will allow no DiNobili's in our casinos.'"

Don Cardi