3 registered members (joepuzzles234, m2w, 1 invisible),
1,010
guests, and 12
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics43,336
Posts1,085,986
Members10,381
|
Most Online1,182 1 hour ago
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: Immobiliare]
#614120
09/10/11 08:12 AM
09/10/11 08:12 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
|

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
|
Offscreen, Tom would have been the primary contact to set up Corleone financing/protection for drug rackets. Also during Vito's "trouble" and before Michael's rise he was the main corruption guy. And evidently he was the fellow who arranged/help set up Tessio's demise.  But no generally I think his film (and book) role was to act as a foil to Michael's more ruthless nature.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: Lilo]
#614139
09/10/11 12:38 PM
09/10/11 12:38 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
|

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
|
We seldom see what Tom does behind the scenes because he's basically a prop for Vito and Michael. I assume he was very good on the political end; otherwise Vito wouldn't have made him consigliere. Also seemed to have been quite competent in setting up Michael as a "legitimate" figure in the Nevada gaming milieu. I thought he was at his smoothest and most effective in setting up Geary and then taking advantage of Geary's terror by having him stay at Michael's home. I still believe Michael authorized the hooker trap earlier, but Tom carried it off brilliantly.
I'd like to summarize the screwups we see:
Tom couldn't be blamed for Vito's shooting. Paulie was Clemenza's responsibility. Nor was he at fault in Luca's death. Luca reported directly to Vito, who may not have told Tom about his mission. And anyway, it was Vito who put the garotte around Luca's neck by sending him to the Tattaglias with that idiotic story about "not being too happy with our family"--as if Vito would allow his "most valued friend" (movie), "a man who could do a job of murder all by himself" (novel) skip off and ply his trade for a rival family.
A charging bull elephant couldn't have deflected Sonny from his fatal final ride. But I believe Tom should have anticipated Carlo's treason. He should have known that the other families would be watching to see if the newest Corleone family member would get anything important--and when he didn't, to take note of that. And, after Sonny's public humiliation of Carlo, Tom should have seen that he'd be a prime candidate for treason during wartime. Overarching lust for vengeance may not be a typical German/Irish characteristic, but it's not unknown among associates of Mafia families.
Tom's failure to find out that Pentangeli had survived and was being held by the Senate committee, and his failure to learn that Questadt belonged to Roth, were inexcusably negligent.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: Immobiliare]
#614161
09/10/11 02:26 PM
09/10/11 02:26 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
|

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
|
It's fair to say that Tom is not the best consigliere. He is loyal though. So perhaps some of his "screwups" with Michael specifically (Pentangeli's survival, the Roth-Questadt connection) aren't so much screw-ups as they are passive-aggressive games.
I mean Michael makes a big production out of letting everyone know "Tom's just my lawyer", "Tom please leave and close the door behind you", "Tom tell Al to join us", "Nobody discuss any Family business with Tom" that maybe out of hurt feelings/revenge Tom thought ok, you want me to be just a lawyer? Then that's all I will be. I will not do one iota of work more than what you've so graciously assigned to me..
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: Immobiliare]
#614172
09/10/11 04:36 PM
09/10/11 04:36 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
|
Special
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473
No. Virginia
|
A couple of things: first, Tom was an inexperienced consigliere in GF1, and there was a certain measure of bad luck that he was essentially in training when Vito was shot.
With respect to Frankie's survival, I think that it is at least possible that much more information became available at the instant Questadt announced that there was a secret witness. No need to keep the secret after Michael had gone on the record, and it would be natural for people to start to talk to the press or others while the story still had some value.
Last edited by mustachepete; 09/10/11 04:36 PM.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: mustachepete]
#614341
09/12/11 09:43 AM
09/12/11 09:43 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
|
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
|
Tom had never been through a war, and was completely untested. No doubt he was a god lawyer but the trouble was he learned what he learned from Vito, not Genco. The idea of a consigliere and his boss also having what amounted to a father-son relationship is a bad one to begin with. As he confessed Vito had a "sentimental weakness" for his children, and this extended to Tom. The appointment of Tom was, in fact, a sign the Don was slippin.
Hard as he was on Tom, Michael always maintained he was an excellent lawyer, but as he pointed out to Kay he was not a Sicilian. There was a place for Tom in the family business but probably not as Consigliere.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: dontomasso]
#614344
09/12/11 10:55 AM
09/12/11 10:55 AM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
|
Tom was exactly what Vito wanted him to be - a hyper-rational, conciliatory, smooth attorney.
Vito wanted Tom to counter-balance Sonny's temper with coolness. He also wanted someone with an impeccable demeanor to be the legitimate face of the Family. Remember his quote from the book about one lawyer with a briefcase stealing more than 100 men with guns.
I don't think Vito's view of consiglieres was much different than Michaels. For all the reverence Genco receives, I question how important he really was. I don't remember anything from the book or movies that indicates Vito really consulted with Genco on strategy. I don't think Vito felt he really needed a real consigliere - a stance which backfired when Vito was taken out of commission.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#614480
09/13/11 09:21 AM
09/13/11 09:21 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
|
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
|
Tom was very good at handling certain kinds of issues, a good example being Woltz. After Woltz insults him up and down, Tom simply says he admires his movies, and will be awaiting his call. Again after Woltz's tirade, Tom thanks him for an excellent meal and calmly asks if his driver could take him to the airport (Tom had no car or driverof his own in L.A. ????)....where Tom was not so good was in wartime. He was too conciliatory and was always looking for a deal to make the peace....EXCEPT during the Tessio betrayal where he played it out perfectly. Right down to Tession playing him by asking if he could get him off the hook for old time's sake, and Tom calmly said he couldn't do that.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: Immobiliare]
#621695
11/26/11 06:43 PM
11/26/11 06:43 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
|

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
|
Tom: When I meet with the Tattaglia people, should I insist that all his drug middlemen have clean records?
Vito: Tom, you're not meeting with anyone.
Tom: No meeting? Why not?
Vito: Do you have to ask? Let's review Tom. Since you became Consigliere, what's happened? Well, I've been shot five times, Sonny was murdered, Fredo's off in Las Vegas, and Michael's hiding in Sicily. Connie's been beat up a few times by Carlo, we've been in a war, and business is down over 50%. And on top of all that,I've got PETA picketing the mall.
Tom: But, but ...
Vito: But nothin' Tom, my kraut-mick friend.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: olivant]
#621704
11/26/11 08:39 PM
11/26/11 08:39 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
|

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
|
Tom: When I meet with the Tattaglia people, should I insist that all his drug middlemen have clean records?
Vito: Tom, you're not meeting with anyone.
Tom: No meeting? Why not?
Vito: Do you have to ask? Let's review Tom. Since you became Consigliere, what's happened? Well, I've been shot five times, Sonny was murdered, Fredo's off in Las Vegas, and Michael's hiding in Sicily. Connie's been beat up a few times by Carlo, we've been in a war, and business is down over 50%. And on top of all that,I've got PETA picketing the mall.
Tom: But, but ...
Vito: But nothin' Tom, my kraut-mick friend.
Vito: But nothin' Tom, my kraut-mick friend. You're a jinx!
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: Tom's ineptitude
[Re: olivant]
#622646
12/02/11 02:27 PM
12/02/11 02:27 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
|
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
|
Enough beating up on Tom!!!!
He was a first rate lawyer and a great fixer (e.g. Woltz, Geary, Getting licensed detectives to guard Vito at the hospital in record time). He just was not a wartime consigliere. His idea f waging wars was to negotiate, and not fight. Of course Sonny was such a bad don that Vito had to end the war by negotiating and comromising on the drug trade. But Michael, without consigliere wiped out everyone.
Also, of all the characters in the trilogy Tom was the only one who got demoted, but simultaneously remained in Mikes inner circle.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
|
|
|
|