Hi all (new poster so be nice )

Something i`ve often pondered in GF1 is how easily Luca was set up and killed.

It also annoys me a little how simple and amatuerish Vito`s instructions to Luca were....

"make out that you are unhappy with the (Corleone) family"

Surely the Tattaglias would have known or heard of Luca`s loyalty to Vito. Surely Vito should have known this and never sent Luca but instead, someone less obvious.

How could Luca let his guard down so easily, especially in an "enemy" bar leaving himself wide open to a garotte.

Also (sorry ) why did Solozzo need Vito killed?. Vito said no and wished him all the best in his venture as long as their interests didn`t conflict. Vito told him that sure the judges and politicians as friends but they wouldn`t be his friends for long if they discovered he was dealing in narcotics. So Solozzo couldn`t ever have them anyway even if Vito was dead.

In my mind, all Solozzo lost out on was 1 million dollars in funding in being refused by Vito. So why did they need the Don dead?

First of all, Welcome!

You are correct - Vito underestimated Sollozzo and the drug deal, which is why he sent Luca to meet with the Tattaglias'. Vito's miscalculation cost the Corleone enforcer, Luca Brasi's life.

What else would Luca have done? He was trying to inflitrate the Tattaglia family. If he came on too strong, he would have tipped his hand. The novel gets into more detail if you care to learn more information.

Sollozzo needed Vito gone because Vito's political contacts (the judges and cops in his back pocket) could crush Sollozzo's drug ring, if Vito were ever to be so inclined. Sollozzo needed the legal protection from Vito even more than needing the $1 million. Remember, Vito was the only Don with such heavy law enforcement and political "friends." With Vito eliminated, the judges would be up for grabs and essentially take bribes from the highest bidder instead of owing their loyalty to Vito.

Also, with Vito gone, Sollozzo saw evidence that Santino wanted the drug deal. Sollozzo (rightly) viewed Santino as weaker than Vito and, thus, easier to control.

Thanks Goombah,

Seems the Novel is my logical next step.

I guess when you`ve watched it as often as i have, you start picking holes. The Novel might help.

I just figured Vito shouldn`t and wouldn`t have underestimated the Turk and the Tattaglias with the wisdom he had.

oops, forgot to thank you for the explanation on why the turk needed vito dead.

Turnbull is one of our most knowledgable posters. He said itmuch more eloquently than what I'm about to write, but this is the gist of it:

There is a recurring theme of characters underestimating one another throughout the first two GF films:

Vito underestimated Sollozzo

Sollozzo & McCluskey underestimated Michael

Hagen underestimated Barzini which lead to Sonny's death

The other Families underestimated Vito at the sitdown

Carlo underestimated his own safety in thinking that Vito & Michael would let him off the hook

And Roth & Michael both underestimated each other in GFII

Thank you, Goombah!
McRod, Goombah gave you a great explanation of why Sollozzo thought his scheme would be advanced by whacking Vito. That's it in a nutshell: the judges would be up for grabs. They weren't so much loyal to Vito as to Vito's money and influence. With Vito gone, they'd still have to eat, send kids to college, etc. At least some of them would, in effect, sign on with Sonny. And since Sonny was "hot" for the deal, Sollozzo thought he had a good chance to get his way with Sonny after dispatching Vito.
I'd add that Sollozzo also probably was a "climber. According to the novel, he was from Sicily, without a family in NYC. By whacking Vito and imposing his will on the Corleones, he'd achieve instant status among the surviving Dons--perhaps even as an equal.

As for Luca being whacked so easily: the short answer is that it makes for a great dramatic scene. Few viewers of GF will ever forget the knife in the hand, the bulging eyes, etc. In real life, Tattaglia and Sollozzo probably would have used at least two gunman.

Your post raises another question: If Vito hadn't been "slippin'", could he have stopped the drug traffic? I think he could have--temporarily. If he'd been on his toes, he would have seen that Sollozzo would never take no for an answer, and that he'd be a mortal threat. He could have given Sollozzo a tentative "yes," and arranged for him to meet with Luca to work out details. Luca could have introduced Sollozzo to a drug dealer of his acquaintance. Then, Luca would have murdered both of them to make it look (to the police) like a drug deal gone bad. The other Dons would know immediately that Vito was behind it. But it'd be like a shot fired across their bows: No drug dealing while Vito Corleone is top dog in NYC. Tattaglia, the pimp, would have to suck it up. Barzini would realize that, with Sollozzo dead, he'd have to line up another major global drug trafficker before planning a move against Vito. I'm guessing that this "pax Corleonus" would have lasted until Vito died. Then greed would have taken over.

If you watch & listen closely to the scene...money wasn't really what Sollozzo wanted from the Corleone Family. He was being backed financially by Tattaglia and of course, Barzini. What he clearly states during that meeting is that he needs Vito's protection from the judges and politicians that he holds in his pocket 'like so many nickels and dimes'. That is what he was denied when Vito turned him down.

When Santino spoke out of turn, Sollozzo sensed that a new, younger Don would be more cooperative. That is why he needed to have Vito dead. As a purely business move, so that he could then deal with Don Santino Corleone...which is why when he had Vito shot and presumed dead, he convinced the kidnapped Tom to reason with Sonny into making the deal on the drug business.

Apple

That's true. But how did he figure Sonny would react to the murder of his father? Surely he didn't think he would just blow it off as business. Also,he knew that Sonny would not necessarily succeed his father as Don. So, he must have figured that Clemenza or Tessio might go for the deal if Vito and Sonny were out of the way.

The reason Sollozzo snatched Tom was to entreat him to "talk reason" to Sonny, who was so hotheaded that "you can't talk business to him," and to Tessio and "that fat Clemenza." He was looking out for exactly the reaction and possibilitgies that you posted about.

He knew EXACTLY how Sonny, as the Don's son...would react, which was why he bothered to kidnap and speak to Tom. It was also why he took the time to kill Luca as well...whom he knew unlike Santino could NOT be reasoned with.

SOLLOZZO : Your boss is dead. I know you're not in the muscle-end of the family, Tom, so I don't want you to be scared. I want you to help the Corleone's, and I want you to help me.

Yeah, we got him outside his office just about an hour after we picked you up.

So now it's up to you to make the peace between me and Sonny.

Sonny was hot for my deal, wasn't he? And you knew it was the right thing to do.

TOM: Sonny'll come after you with everything he's got.

SOLLOZZO: That'll be his first reaction, sure. That's why you gotta talk some sense into him. The Tattaglia family is behind me with all their people. The other New York Families will go along with anything that will prevent a full-scale war. Let's face it, Tom, and all due respect,
the Don, rest in peace, was slippin'. Ten years ago could I have gotten to him?

Well, now he's dead. He's dead, Tom, and nothing can bring him back. So you gotta talk to Sonny, you gotta talk to the caporegimes, that Tessio and that Fat Clemenza.

It's good business, Tom.

TOM: I'll try, but even Sonny won't be able to call off Luca Brasi.

SOLLOZZO: Yeah, well, let me worry about Luca. You just talk to Sonny -- and the other two kids.

TOM: I'll to my best.

SOLLOZZO: Good. Now, you can go.

I don't like violence, Tom. I'm a business man. Blood is a big expense.

[THEN, ONCE TOLD THAT VITO HAD SURVIVED THE SHOOTING, SOLLOZZO CONTINUES TO INSIST TOM TO TALK SONNY INTO MAKING A DEAL]

SOLLOZZO: He's still alive. They hit'em with five shots, and he's still alive! Well that's bad luck for me, and bad luck for you if you don't make that deal!

*****

Apple

McRod,

Welcome to a brother across the pond. It's always great to have a European perspective.

As you have no doubt gleened from your thread here, you will gain a depth to understanding the GF storyline. My perspective might be a little more on the artistic. When you bash the film against the book you will undoubtedly find more depth in the novel. Credit Coppola for creating a film masterpiece, but occasionally you find the dialog or storyline will have some bumps and screeches; as you pointed out. I think the tough thing about making a film and screenplay is condensing 10 pages of dialog and narrative into 3 sentences without losing the original thought. Thus, the awkward scene you describe.

After 36 years, we have the luxury of dissecting and analyzing - but mind you not criticizing - a masterful work of art. And we have the benefit of insight from such folks as the Professor Turnbull, goombah, Apple On Ya and many more. Enjoy the Gangster BB. I think you will find it enlightening and it will add to your enjoyment of the GF Trilogy.

I always loved that line of dialog -

Either you are going to let Tom go, or you aren't - right? How is that bad luck for Hagan?

The Turk was bringing an Old World way of Business to the New World

That Barzini and T saw that as an opportunity seems sad

Whether the Don lived or died...what Sollozzo never, EVER feared or envisioned was his own demise at the hands of the Corleone Family. He had the imagined luxury of being 'invulnerable' due to the protection of McClusky.

So he truly (and justifiably) felt he had Tom cornered. At that point they would HAVE to make the deal or the Family would be substantially weakened.

All this of course...before Michael Corleone came up with that little plan of his

Apple

I think the one point we are missing here is that Luca's death was depicted as "easy" to show us that times were changing, the Godfather was slipping, Luca wasn't as immortal as they all thought, I mean.....look at the scenes before he goes to meet with the Tattaliga's (???), they show him putting on his vest, how scary he looked walking down the hall.....his death showed us that the Corleons, like Luca, were not as smart as they thought, that there were some gaping holes in their armor. This made Michael's coming to the rescue so dramatic, and soo important, it showed the change of time and the passing of the torch.
Agree???

Good point, Barry! Sollozzo sent the fish wrapped in Luca's bulletproof vest for maximum shock value. The real "Sicilian message" was that "you lost your atomic weapon." Michael is juxtapositioned nicely there. He wants to help, Sonny says, "no, no, the old man'd have my head," then says Michael could "hang around the phone, be a big help..." But after the dead fish, no more telemarketing for Michael.

Thanks Turnbull!
I love that scene, it would be like watching a young Michael Jordan sitting on a park bench and wanting to play ball, and the older kids not letting him play, teasing him a bit.......and then he finally gets a chance....and bada bing bada boom, he is blowing their brains all over his nice Nike shoes!!!! LOL.
You are right on that scene with the fish in the vest message, that scene had soo much symbolism behind it......GOSH I LOVE THIS MOVIE!!!!!

I always found it interesting that in the moment of crisis for the whole Corleone family - it still was vital to find out where Luca was...shows his street value

keep calling him in the war chamber/inner circle - keep calling all day.

Luca really was as tough as Santino could ever dream of being, Luca scared everybody but the Don - if he had flipped, Santino and Tom and the capos (Tessio, and that fat Clemenza) were about to throw in the towel...

To the best of my recollection, nobody knew that Vito had sent Luca to infiltrate Sollozzo's circle...so normally, he would've probably been with Vito the moment he was shot (which Solozzo knew had to be prevented). If not then, he would've most certainly been reachable and at Vito's side shortly thereafter.

The Family knew it was highly unusual that Luca could not be contacted immediately. That's why they kept trying and grew more concerned with each unanswered call.

Apple