1 registered members (Malavita),
92
guests, and 33
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics43,347
Posts1,086,182
Members10,381
|
Most Online1,254 Mar 13th, 2025
|
|
|
Was Tom weak?
#655439
07/14/12 10:27 AM
07/14/12 10:27 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831 New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger
OP
Underboss
|
OP
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
|
Watching the movie last night the idea dawned on me, that Tom was weak. He tried to have Sonny do the deal with Sollozzo even after he thought Vito could die. He showed emotion too much when he should have kept it under control, like when Sollozzo told him that Vito was dead and other times with Mike. He and allowed Mike to walk all over him and push him out of the insider part of family business. In deleted scenes from the script for Part II he was having an affair with Sandra. I don't get the feeling that he was weak in the book as much as in the films but I do think that the thought that Tom was a weak person is always there. Maybe it's because of his Irish/German background. Sonny was right, he needed a Sicilian consigliere.
I am not saying that this makes him a bad character since I think Tom is one of the most fascinating characters of the movies but I did notice the weakness in Tom when I watched the movie last night.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by DeathByClotheshanger; 07/14/12 10:30 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: Trilogy]
#655497
07/14/12 11:37 PM
07/14/12 11:37 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 578
danielperrygin
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 578
|
I believe Tom was the most even headed man in the family, only Mike was better with his emotions than Tom. He was simply thinking business when he wanted to make the deal, he would have made the family money and on top of that avoided a war, so in that thinking Sonny was the onr who needed to handle his emotions. Tom also knew his plac when it came to the family, he did what the Corleone in charge at the time told him to do, which most the time was to give his opinion on a matter. The only people in the family Tom was weak around was Sonny Mike and Vito, everyone was his junior in the family. I thought Tom kept his cool during his kidnap. Tom doesn't have a choice to be strong because he will never be the Don. Have you seen Part 2? Tom was the don the whole time Mike was running around the country and in Cuba.
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: danielperrygin]
#655541
07/15/12 10:32 AM
07/15/12 10:32 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
|

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
|
Tom wasn't weak. His training was as a lawyer, and lawyers are trained to be conciliators, to work out practical solutions before going to trial (or in the Corleones' case, shooting). Vito chose him for his brains, his loyalty to the family, and because his even temperament was essential in containing Sonny's hot-headedness and his penchant for violence. He wasn't a good match for Michael, who didn't have Sonny's problem and was his own consigliere. Michael was cruel to him at times, but as we saw, when the chips were down (i.e., after Vito's death in GF and after the Tahoe shooting in II), he trusted Tom.
If Tom had a weakness it was that he wasn't Sicilian and didn't think like a Sicilian. IMO, he should have seen that Carlo would look for vengeance (in the novel, he realizes that he was "no fit wartime consigliere--old Genco would have smelled a rat"). Michael may have (unfairly) blamed him for Sonny's death.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: DeathByClotheshanger]
#655542
07/15/12 10:39 AM
07/15/12 10:39 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
|

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
|
At some points Tom is about this close to being asked to shine the shoes of Neri and Rocco.  Ok, maybe exaggeration but I think that Michael's relationship with Tom, and increasingly with everyone, was purely transactional, not functional. It was the biggest difference between Michael and Vito and why even though both men were, for lack of a better word, evil, we see Michael's decay and fall as tragic. That little speech Michael gave Tom before leaving was certainly designed to play to Tom's weak points because at that point in time, Michael had no choice but to trust him. It wasn't out of love but cold calculation. I don't think Michael believed anything he said about brotherhood with Tom. The gratuitously cold way he treated Tom upon his return was I think, his true feeling towards Tom.
Last edited by Lilo; 07/15/12 10:43 AM. Reason: clarity
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: Lilo]
#655558
07/15/12 12:52 PM
07/15/12 12:52 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
|

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
|
That little speech Michael gave Tom before leaving was certainly designed to play to Tom's weak points because at that point in time, Michael had no choice but to trust him. It wasn't out of love but cold calculation. I don't think Michael believed anything he said about brotherhood with Tom. The gratuitously cold way he treated Tom upon his return was I think, his true feeling towards Tom. There's no question that Michael's homily reeked of insincerity and was designed to play Tom like a violin ("I always wanted to be thought of as a brother by you," clearly indicating that Tom didn't believe Michael thought of him as a brother). Perhaps Michael didn't have any choice but Tom at that point. But, Michael might have thought that, because of his coldness to Tom, he could have been in on the Tahoe shooting as vengeance. Then again, Michael probably figured (correctly) that Tom's loyalty would override any plots for vengeance. The family was all he had in life.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: danielperrygin]
#655604
07/15/12 07:29 PM
07/15/12 07:29 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
|

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
|
I think you all are wrong about Mike and Tom's relationship. Mike knew no matter what he did or what he told Tom to do that he would always be loyal to te family and nothing else. He lovd Tom for all he had done for his family. Why do you think he got mad before the talks about Roth? Because he thought Tom was slowly working his way out the family wnd was hurt. Mike would never kill Tom and leaned on him during his whole life. You're right about the first part of your posts: Tom's loyalty to Vito and Vito's memory was undiminshed. You're wrong about the second part. As others have posted, Michael used everybody including Tom. As Michael saw things, Fredo was weak and stupid, Connie was used by men and otherwise useless tot he family, and Tom had not protected the family as he was supposed to do as Consigliere. Michael held him in contempt.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: Danito]
#655979
07/18/12 07:56 PM
07/18/12 07:56 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
|

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
|
Also, anyone's temperment tends to condition's one's response to them. Interesting that when Sonny takes charge, the Don's office looks messy, and when they discuss what to do, Tom (copying Sonny) sits relaxed as if he's on a beach party. He would never behave that way in front of Michael or Vito. In the novel Tom thinks that the Don's usually neat office was taking on the look of a rented room. They even ate in there.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: Was Tom weak?
[Re: DeathByClotheshanger]
#660183
08/14/12 10:45 PM
08/14/12 10:45 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 418 New York
Imamobguy
Capo
|
Capo
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 418
New York
|
Tom wasnt weak. Tom was a Consigliere and a very good lawyer in New York. Tom also set up many operations for the Corleone Family in Las Vegas and Florida.
Last edited by Imamobguy; 08/14/12 10:45 PM.
|
|
|
|