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Was Big Paul a good Boss?
#728256
07/21/13 02:07 AM
07/21/13 02:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
Mr_Willie_Cicci
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Posts: 151
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Disregarding his end--which isn't a reflection so much on him, I feel, as it is on the guys under him--would you say he was a good Boss? I mean, he seems like the last old school, truly old fashioned, real La Cosa Nostra Boss. It just seems like the rise of Gotti and that generation sort of ended any even pretense of them being men of honor--Like, he was the last old style Boss that could truly go back to Carlo and pre-Apalachin. And I think this direction for the Family--toward international crimes, white collar crimes, etc--if followed might've kept the Gambino Family having 500 soldiers even today.
His main fault in my opinion was not whacking out the Gotti crew. It was only because of Angie Ruggiero's big mouth that he was bugged; It was only cause of Gotti that he was killed; it was only because of Gotti becoming Boss that Gravano was able to get so high up....Really, if Paul had whacked out the whole Gotti faction, it might've kept the Gambinos going strong for another 50 years.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci]
#728264
07/21/13 03:55 AM
07/21/13 03:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,017
SonnyBlackstein
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,017
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Paul receives less credit than he deserved. His view was of sophisticated racketeering, moving the family more towards systematic crime (eg unions) as opposed to street corner gambling and loan.
His was a continuation of Carlo's ethos which I think he recovers little 'credit' for.
Gigante (to correct the thread creator) was the last old school Don. If Paul had not been killed, convicted in the commission case, there is every chance the Gambinos would still be the largest most successful Borgota today, if not on par with the westside.
He was in Chin and Carlos's mould. His one fatal problem was that they managed their 'street' crews better.
Excluding that, he was very, very similar. Yet receives little respect.
MORGAN: Why didn't you fight him at the park if you wanted to? I'm not goin' now, I'm eatin' my snack. CHUCKIE: Morgan, Let's go. MORGAN: I'm serious Chuckie, I ain't goin'. WILL: So don't go.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Dellacroce]
#728277
07/21/13 07:17 AM
07/21/13 07:17 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699 Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
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Posts: 699
Illinois
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I think one of those estimates was too exaggerated, when Carlo died it might have been 250 to 300 made guys, especially with 25 Crews, average of 10 men x 25 crews is 250, plus the captains and administration. But aside from that point, I have a bigger question to ask about New York: 1). What did a Crew receive in return for giving Paul 15%?
2). How did Paul possible know if he was really getting 15%?
3). If the Crew did not really receiving any benefit from Paul and he had nothing to do with them making money, why did they need to give him 15%? In Chicago, the Boss made money for a REASON.
Last edited by Chicago; 07/21/13 09:06 AM.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Dellacroce]
#728281
07/21/13 08:39 AM
07/21/13 08:39 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699 Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
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Posts: 699
Illinois
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I understand the 'Organized Extortion Kick Up' but it can cause tremendous resentment if all the made guys have to kick up 10% for no real reason to a guy sitting in a big fucking house removed from everything. That's the fastest way to get killed. in Chicago, The Top Boss had his OWN crew. He was partners with all the made guys in his crew and all the other crews were partnered with him and his guys in one way or another.
For example: The Boss's Crew would own the Company that manufactured the Poker Machines. The other crews would have those machines in their areas.
Another example: All the crews would run Bookmaking, but they would all lay off their bets to the Top Boss's Crew.
Another example: The Boss's Crew would have the best Political Connections so other Crews would WANT to partner with the Top Crew so they could have maximum protection.
Another example: Crews would work together on murder.
Another example: The Bosses would put some of their money out on the street in partnership with other made guys and expect a certain return.
The Top Boss of the Outfit had the Strongest Crew and best political connections. All the other crews would be partnered with him and his top men in one way or another for different but LOGICAL REASONS.
Last edited by Chicago; 07/21/13 08:47 AM.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Dellacroce]
#728286
07/21/13 09:16 AM
07/21/13 09:16 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699 Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
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Posts: 699
Illinois
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Yes, I know it's tribute. Either way works. I think the more successful families in New York had the Bosses more involved than Paul Castellano. I think he was more of an extreme case of disassociation. That's one of the reason's why he got killed. However, Paul was more directly involved in partnership things with the other New York Bosses.
In the old days Gigante was an involved boss with his connections and some of his money. Chicago used to be allied with the Genovese Family. They were well organized. The Outfit Bosses valued their relationship with them. The Genovese's were a fucking powerhouse.
Last edited by Chicago; 07/21/13 09:18 AM.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci]
#728374
07/21/13 04:36 PM
07/21/13 04:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 108 NYC
tenpin477
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 108
NYC
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I think Big Paul was a good boss in terms of how much money he brought in, but it also seems like he treated the organization as a way to make himself money at the expense of the rest of his family, rather than as tribute.
It was his thing, rather than our thing. His actions as boss are dirrectly responsible for Gotti having support to whack him, so I don't know how good of a boss he really is.
"Name one thing in this world that is not negotiable." Walter Hartwell White
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci]
#728502
07/22/13 12:26 AM
07/22/13 12:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 108 NYC
tenpin477
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 108
NYC
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Paul wasn't nearly the negotiator Carlo was iirc
"Name one thing in this world that is not negotiable." Walter Hartwell White
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci]
#728505
07/22/13 01:00 AM
07/22/13 01:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,678
DiLorenzo
Underboss
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,678
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Chicago]
#728506
07/22/13 01:17 AM
07/22/13 01:17 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,017
SonnyBlackstein
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,017
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I think one of those estimates was too exaggerated, when Carlo died it might have been 250 to 300 made guys, especially with 25 Crews, average of 10 men x 25 crews is 250, plus the captains and administration. But aside from that point, I have a bigger question to ask about New York: 1). What did a Crew receive in return for giving Paul 15%?
2). How did Paul possible know if he was really getting 15%?
3). If the Crew did not really receiving any benefit from Paul and he had nothing to do with them making money, why did they need to give him 15%? In Chicago, the Boss made money for a REASON. I assume you're being facetious bit to answer your questions: 1) for protection from the family. To use the name and its power in conducting dealings. The boss being the families represente was entitled to a share from its members. 2) no one ever knows. It's assumed that members will always skim a little and it's cost of business. A member or associate is expected to go on record with his superior all his illegal activity. 3) the crew received protection from the boss. Regards how it works in Chicago, in NY bosses don't have their own crews and don't only get tribute from activities they're directly involved in. Your assertion that big Paul would not have gotten wacked if he did so is wrong as it is not the NY way. Did your Genovese Chin only get kick-ups from activities he was directly involved in? No. Paul was wacked because tapes were about to surface indicating Gotti's crew were involved in drug dealing. And Gotti himself was in danger. If Gotti was west side and the same circumstances occurred ive no doubt Chin would've been lying face down outside sparks. Gotti acted out of ambition and without choice. It was kill or be killed with the big seat an added cherry. The NY system is the universal system of LCN in the US. Associates kick up to soldiers to captains to the admin. Chicago is the exception. Not the rule.
Last edited by SonnyBlackstein; 07/22/13 01:19 AM.
MORGAN: Why didn't you fight him at the park if you wanted to? I'm not goin' now, I'm eatin' my snack. CHUCKIE: Morgan, Let's go. MORGAN: I'm serious Chuckie, I ain't goin'. WILL: So don't go.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: SonnyBlackstein]
#728507
07/22/13 01:30 AM
07/22/13 01:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699 Illinois
Chicago
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 699
Illinois
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Sonny Blackstein, Excellent Sir, of course I was being a little facetious! Don't you think I already knew the answer! You spelled it out very well.
Chicago is somewhat different but not a lot different. the Bosses earn from direct involvement and are financial backers in their Crew, but they also receive tribute for all the other reasons you stated.
Again, Excellent Sir, I didn't know you had it in you. LOL
Last edited by Chicago; 07/22/13 01:31 AM.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci]
#728519
07/22/13 02:35 AM
07/22/13 02:35 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
Lou_Para
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
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Paulie was an OK boss who desired to take the Family more into legit business,while maintaining the status quo on the traditional street rackets.Unfortunately,he lacked street sense and the respect from the troops,qualities that keep you in power.Had Gambino still been alive,Gotti and Angelo would have gone MIA,and Sammy would have probably done the work.If Neil would have let out a peep,there would have been three bodies in the hole.
Other than DellaCroce and a couple of the old schoolers like Faiella, Armone,and Gallo,nobody really gave a fart about Carlo Gambino or tradition,and as we saw,Armone betrayed Paul.
The street crews would keep giving Paul what they felt like giving him, and DellaCroce would keep letting Paul play Boss.Neil ran a huge portion of the Gambino Family,and regardless of all the talk of being a Cosa Nosa traditionalist,only kept Gotti in check so as not to interrupt his own cash flow.
Last edited by Lou_Para; 07/22/13 02:38 AM.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Mr_Willie_Cicci]
#728565
07/22/13 11:33 AM
07/22/13 11:33 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653 Illinois
F_white
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653
Illinois
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For the way the family so going Paul was the right man,a good boss but not great.He learned from one of the greatest boss of all time in let Angelo and Gotti bring him down Carlos will have kill both them in a heart beat for bring all that heat on him.
From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Dellacroce]
#729360
07/24/13 07:20 PM
07/24/13 07:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 73 Eastern Europe
Slava
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Eastern Europe
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Right castellano wasn't a gangster and he didn't earn his stripes, so a lot of the street guys resented him for it. I never understood why people say that Paul Castellano wasn't a gangster. Wasn't this just some rubbish propaganda by Gotti and Sammy? Paul dropped out of school at an early age, was involved in blue-collar rackets and robberies, did some time, was associating and hanging around with gangsters all his life, ordered a lot of hits and was feared. He was a street guy until he became rich and started living more lavishly, just like many other made guys with a lot of money. It's not like he was some college guy from some upper middle class family or something and accidentally wandered into a LCN family. IMO he wasn't much different from the old school godfathers like Lucchese, Bonnano, Gambino or Profaci, it's just that he was rulling over a family few decades too late in the time of RICO and more sophisticated surveillance. Plus there was this "Goodfellas" generation of blue-collar cowboys that didn't give a shit about rules. Gotti became one of the most famous mobsters and his version of the story is the most popular one, I guess this is why most people view Castellano as a bad boss, but it's far from truth IMO. At least he had a vision and knew how a modern crime family should be run.
Last edited by Slava; 07/24/13 07:25 PM.
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Slava]
#729379
07/24/13 08:38 PM
07/24/13 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 160
Jenkins
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 160
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Right castellano wasn't a gangster and he didn't earn his stripes, so a lot of the street guys resented him for it. I never understood why people say that Paul Castellano wasn't a gangster. Wasn't this just some rubbish propaganda by Gotti and Sammy? Paul dropped out of school at an early age, was involved in blue-collar rackets and robberies, did some time, was associating and hanging around with gangsters all his life, ordered a lot of hits and was feared. He was a street guy until he became rich and started living more lavishly, just like many other made guys with a lot of money. It's not like he was some college guy from some upper middle class family or something and accidentally wandered into a LCN family. IMO he wasn't much different from the old school godfathers like Lucchese, Bonnano, Gambino or Profaci, it's just that he was rulling over a family few decades too late in the time of RICO and more sophisticated surveillance. Plus there was this "Goodfellas" generation of blue-collar cowboys that didn't give a shit about rules. Gotti became one of the most famous mobsters and his version of the story is the most popular one, I guess this is why most people view Castellano as a bad boss, but it's far from truth IMO. At least he had a vision and knew how a modern crime family should be run. I was about to respond to that post but then I read this and you summed it up perfectly. Big Paul was most certainly a gangster and I would say possibly did more than Gotti did to "earn his stripes".
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Re: Was Big Paul a good Boss?
[Re: Slava]
#729429
07/25/13 12:07 AM
07/25/13 12:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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Right castellano wasn't a gangster and he didn't earn his stripes, so a lot of the street guys resented him for it. I never understood why people say that Paul Castellano wasn't a gangster. Wasn't this just some rubbish propaganda by Gotti and Sammy? Paul dropped out of school at an early age, was involved in blue-collar rackets and robberies, did some time, was associating and hanging around with gangsters all his life, ordered a lot of hits and was feared. He was a street guy until he became rich and started living more lavishly, just like many other made guys with a lot of money. It's not like he was some college guy from some upper middle class family or something and accidentally wandered into a LCN family. IMO he wasn't much different from the old school godfathers like Lucchese, Bonnano, Gambino or Profaci, it's just that he was rulling over a family few decades too late in the time of RICO and more sophisticated surveillance. Plus there was this "Goodfellas" generation of blue-collar cowboys that didn't give a shit about rules. Gotti became one of the most famous mobsters and his version of the story is the most popular one, I guess this is why most people view Castellano as a bad boss, but it's far from truth IMO. At least he had a vision and knew how a modern crime family should be run. Good post. One could argue that Castellano wouldn't have been boss if not for his relation to Gambino, and that may have been one reason for Gotti's dislike of him, but Gotti turned right around and made his son the acting boss too.
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