In GF it is obvious that Sonny and Tom want Fredo out of the way during the war, so they make arrangements to send him to Vegas to work for Moe Green. It seems he is convinced that by going there he is going to be laying the groundwork for a Corleone Vegas operation of some kind. When Vito returns from the hospital and Sonny and Tom are bringing him up to speeed, they inform him that Fredo is leaving, and Fredo says proudly that he is going to "learn the casino business." After Sonny dies and Michael insults Moe Green, Fredo sees fit to upbraid Michael by telling him you "don't come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Moe Green like that!" Then Michael givs him the warning that turns out to be a foreshadowing of what happens in II. There Fredo is especially put out by the fact that he was stepped over by his younger brother. It seems when Sonny was caling the shots Fredo obeyed, but when Michael was he betrayed the family whenever he could. Is this simply an issue of his birth order and his perception that he should have been next in line?

While that is clearly his gripe in GFII, I'm not sure that was really what was going on in the Vegas scene in GFI.

Fredo seems like the type of person who is always trying to please people. That's why, I think, he defends Moe to Michael. I don't think he realizes yet that he has been "passed over."

He even refers to Vito as "the Don" when he tries to get Tom to intervene on Moe's behalf. I doubt that Fredo would have knowingly betrayed his father. His taking sides against the Family in favor of Moe isn't about Fredo being passed over - it's just about Fredo being weak, foolish, and easily led.

Dunno Last...doesn't Tom tell Fredo that Michael is now running the family busiiness and that the Don is semi-retired? Its after that exchange when Moe storms out of the room and Fredo starts giving Michael hell about how you don't come to Vegas and talk to " a man like Moe Greene like that!" Maybe he had an inflated view of Moe Greene?

I think Fredo's words and other behaviors were a function of some degree of Stockholm Syndrome. Although not abducted, Fredo was never one to assert himself and he responded to Moe's dominant behavior just as he did to his father's and Sonny's. Also, don't forget that the novel tells us that Fredo had a genius for running a hotel. That probably got him the respect he did not have back in NY. He may have considered that it was Moe who gave him the opportunity. Thus, he could be expected to defend Moe.

I think Fredo believed that he was the Family's Vegas boss and that Mike was trying to stick his nose in where it didn't belong.
His manner of dress,the party girls,the band,and his demeanor all indicate a narcissist who really believed that he was finally a big shot. When he attempted to impress Moe by stepping in and got shot down,he lost what little face he had left.
Fredo was basically mind-numbingly stupid and would never grasp the overall big picture in terms of the Family's future in Vegas. I can see him in his room,face down on the bed,kicking his feet and crying "Mike always ruins everything".
In spite of Green's treatment of him,Fredo saw himself as Mini-Moe and he feared that Mike taking over would end his fun.
Bottom line,Fredo could not accept little brother Mike calling the shots in what he considered his backyard.

I think Fredo's attitude reflected all the points mentioned so far. He was weak and stupid, and so he let Moe slap him around and didn't grasp that Michael was the boss--and was far stronger than Moe. He resented Michael because he was passed over, as he said in II. And, I think he resented that Michael was nosing into the casino that he thought was "his," even though Moe was the nominal boss.

BTW: Smart, forward-looking move on Sonny's part to put Fredo in Moe's hotel and provide money for Moe to finish the casino. Set the stage for the family's expansion and move toward "legitimacy."

Absolutely. Maybe Sonny's best move other than to let Michaell kill Sol and McC. Obviously Vito, Sonny and Tom had discussed long range plans to get into business in Vegas. Vito would have known (as did Michael) that Hyman Roth would not act on their moving Moe Greene out. To the extent Moe was based on Bugsy Siegel, a strong Corleone family may hae had the backing of the rest of the mob -- especially if Moe was losing money. Moe himself touches on this when Michael tells him his casino is losing money, and Michael dodges the issue by telling him he just thinks Moe is "unlucky."

Fredo starts losing it the minute Michael throws out the women and the band, and then hands the contracts to Johnny Fontaine thereby co-opting him, and of course then Moe.

It is clear that Fredo was never privy to the plan to allow Moe to build out the casino and then move him out, and it is also clear that Fredo had no clue what was going on in the family. He thought Tom was still the consigliere and he thought Vito was still running things, and worse, he said so.

This brings me back to the old question of the Fredo-Ola connection. I still think they had to have known each other in the backstory of GF simply because of the closeness between Moe and Roth. This would also mean that Moe would have tipped Roth off that Hagen was out, Michael was running things and Fredo was an idiot.

It would be good business for Roth to allow the Corleones to settle their scores in New York and slowly fill in any vacuum left by the destruction of the heads of the families, and it would also serve his interests to allow Michael to take Roth out as he did. It set the table for him to make the move he tried in II, but like Barzini et al. Roth made the fatal mistake of underestimating Michael.

One question still lurks, however. Knowing what he had to have known about Fredo being out of the loop but wanting to be in it, why would he think Fredo could influence Michael on any negotiations he clearly knew nothing about? I think the answer is Fredo let on that he was closer to Michael than he was, and Roth and Ola allowed him tp poay out this charae so they could get Fredo "inside" to help them with the planned hit on Michael.

Yes, DT, for the first time Fredo felt important. As I posted above, Puzo states that Fredo had a genius for running a hotel. Being so, naturally that would be a boost to his self-esteem. However, he made the mistake that so many make when they are looking at the trees and not the forest. Just as Woltz thought his power in the movie industry extended beyond the studio walls, Fredo probably thought that his influence within the family had increased.

But, as you point out, it was demonstrated in front of Moe that Fredo was out of the loop. So, despite what Fredo let on, Roth should have been smart enough to know that Fredo had limited exposure to the family. However, Roth may have figured that limited was better than none.

Oli good point but I think Roth knew Fredo had no influence, but at the very least could get al kinds of infor from Fredo. What is the layout of the compound. Where does Mike sleep? Fredo would give them a map to the place and not know he was giving it to them.

Ola - So I guess that compound Mike has is pretty secure.
Fredo - Oh ueah. They got dogs, and lights and sirens that come on when someone tries to break in.

Ola - But its on Lake Tahoe right?
Fredo, Yeah, right there. No walls nothin. Just a lake. Neri was talking about it and Mike thought it was pretty secure. He said something about the layout of the house and how he always kept the drapes closed so no one would know where he was. Imagine that. His bedroom facs the lake, and there nothing but a tree outside his window, and he uses frapes to protect himself!
Ola - You'd be smarter than that about security wouldn't you Fredo?
Fredo - oh yeah. I mean anyone can get back there and open them. You just take a left from his office and go three doors down the hall. Nothing is locked or anything.
Ola - Oh well, enough about that. Dont forget about the negotiations. And remember there's something in it for you.

As we've discussed in other threads: FOne of the dead-giveaways in II is that Fredo had to have known Ola prior to their meeting in Havana. In the boathouse at Anthony's party, Ola says to Michael about Hagen: "Sure, I remember Tom from the old days." If he was around Tom in the old days, he would have met Fredo, too.


I think Roth and Ola's goal re. Fredo was not to have him influence the negotiations--I think assassination, not negotiation, was the plan when Fredo was recruited. They wanted Fredo to help set up the hit (no matter what Ola told him). An equally important Roth/Ola objective: with Michael dead, Fredo would be the center of a probable civil war within the Corleone family--Tom supporting him out of loyalty, Rocco and Neri wanting to take over because he was weak and stupid. The family would be torn apart violently, and Roth would pick up the pieces.

Agreed on all points, except had the hit on Michael in Havana had worked, and had Tom figured out that Questadt was owned by Roth and that Pentangeli was still alie and in custody, he may well have ceded control to Rocco and Neri, or simply have bowed out. In either case I think he would have taken his wife and mistress and moved to Las Vegas in that hotel job.

I don't think that Tom would necessarily have supported Fredo. He was not loyal so much as pragmatic, as evidenced by his support of the drug deal after Vito's shooting. Tom would have searched for whatever solution would have protected the Family's interests best and caused the least bloodshed.

What I wonder is, given the paucity of good options, whether Tom would have made a move for the Donship himself, either directly or by backing someone he could control from behind the scenes (Fredo?).

Tom is never shown as ambitious, but he never really had the chance to be without betraying one of his "brothers."

I've wondered that, too, LW. But, to return to a point emphasized in the novel, Tom "lacked force."

Tom may have well been able to negotiate a deal in which Frdo was the nominal head of the family with the power vested in Neri with Rocco as his Number one Capo. After that Neri would ease him out of the family, and Tom, would keep omerta and fade away. Don't forget, some on these boards say Neri himself did not like the idea of killing Fredo.

I don't see Tom as wanting the Donship. His unalterable loyalty was to Vito and Sonny and their memory. I just don't see him as wanting it. In fact, I see him as realizing that his limitations. I don't think he ever recovered emotionally from his failure to protect the family, particularly Sonny. He served Michael strictly out of loyalty to the family.

I still dont buy that Fredo wanted to hurt Michael. yes i agree he wanted more recognition in the crime family and he stupidly went about it in the wrong wat but Fredo seems to be a guy who loves his family members. Fredo was lied to by Roth and Ola which is why eh was pissed when they call him at night. Of Course he was scared becasue he knows what mike is capable of but i dont think he actually wnated michael to get hurt/killed

I agree that Fredo never thought that Mike would be attacked. He just wanted to be taken seriously on his own merits. First,he fumbles the gun when Vito gets shot,then he gets embarrassed in front of Moe Green by Mike,and as we know,getting passed over stuck in his craw for awhile. I believe that he was stupid and self centered enough to think that he could become a valued member of the Family. As he said in the famous boathouse scene "and I want RESPECT!" I bet if Mike would have treated Fredo differently,instead of as a flunky,Fredo would have told Ola to go whistle.

If Fredo didn't think Michal was going to be attacked, what did he think would happen to Michael?

Well TB, as Fredo told Michael, he didn't know it was going to be a hit, just a scare. Certainly, once he found out that there were two hitmen with machine guns and he saw how the hit was conducted, he (as anyone else would) concluded that it was intended as a hit.

He didn't specifically say he thought it was going to be a "scare." And, if as many here believe, he was the one who opened the drapes, why did he do so, if not to facilitate a hit?

From the way events unfolded in the movie,we really don't know exactly what Fredo was told by Roth and Ola ,or what info he gave them. We're never told the full extent of the conversations,so how do we conclude that Fredo knowingly set up even a part of the machine gun attack on Mike's bedroom.All we have is Fredo lying about knowing Johnny,and his revelation in the boathouse scene that he was told that Mike was being "tough on the negotiations". As slick and slimy as Roth was,and as null and void as Fredo was,I think a case can be made that Fredo could well have been given a bull**it story and led to believe that the info he gave would be their little secret. Call me naive,but I believed Fredo when he said he didn't know it was going to be a hit.

We have a lot more about Fredo lying. Consider this lie that he told Michael in the boathouse:

I didn't know it was gonna be a hit Mike -- I swear to god I didn't know it was going to be a hit. JOHNNY OLA bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- and he said that he wanted to talk -- he said that you and -- and -- ROTH were in on a -- a -- big deal together. And that there was something in it for me if I'd help 'em out. He said that -- he said that -- you were bein' tough on the negotiations. But if they could get a little help -- and close the deal fast -- it'd be good for the family.

"Get a little help--and close the deal fast"? Fredo was never a party to any negotiations between Michael and Roth re. Cuba. And, as he admitted to Michael in Havana, "I'm totally in the dark." What kind of "help" could he have given Roth and Ola with the "negotiations" except to pre-empt the "negotiations" by assisting in Michael's assassination.

I'd like to believe that Fredo was too stupid to realize that any story Ola told him would lead to his brother's murder. But, it turns out, Fredo wasn't that dumb. In fact, he was in with Roth and Ola far deeper than he let on. Just consider: in the boathouse, he tells Michael, "They [the Feds] got Pentangeli," and "the Senate lawyer, Questadt, belongs to Roth." How did he know that, unless Ola and/or Roth told him?

Fredo was the only Corleone who had a decent heart. Sonny loved his family but he was still a murder and Mike by Part 2 was showing signs of being a psychopath. I do think fredo was resentful but its obviosu he didng want to hurt michael at least in a physically harmful way