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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: Lefty_Ruggerio]
#738004
09/02/13 01:13 PM
09/02/13 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 380 In a wide open city
Tony_Pro
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 380
In a wide open city
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Some more, Pistone talking to Lefty and Booby about the lion in the bar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OswY2bjuk2k
This life of ours, this is a wonderful life. If you can get through life like this, hey, thats great. But it's very, very unpredictable. There are so many ways you can screw it up.-Paul Castellano (he would know)
"I'm not talking about Italians, I'm talking about criminals."-Joe Valachi
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: funkster]
#738094
09/02/13 10:40 PM
09/02/13 10:40 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
Lou_Para
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
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Is it general consensus that Mirra was an informant? The commonly accepted motive for Mirra's murder was retaliation for the Pistone infiltration of the Bonannos.When Sonny was whacked,Mirra figured that he was next due to his association with "Brasco",so he laid low until Joe Massino found a way to get to him. Although Mirra was duped by Pistone,just like Lefty and Sonny,Massino thought that Mirra was in on it from the beginning. The feeling (incorrectly)was that Mirra was flipped before Pistone came around,and that he agreed to help with the infiltration,and work with the FBI by being Brasco's inside guy. From what I understand,Mirra was never a rat,except in the imagination of the Bonannos.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: Lefty_Ruggerio]
#738291
09/04/13 08:54 AM
09/04/13 08:54 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 57
ChardeeMcDennis
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Posts: 57
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i don't see how massino or anyone else could have thought that mirra was in on it from the beginning and helped brasco infiltrate the family because when he got out of prison he had a series of sit downs over donnie brasco where he lied about brasco stealing 250k from him in a drug deal, the obvious motive being convincing the family that donnie should be killed. no informant would be dumb enough to do this to his FBI handler.
for this reason i (and probably massino and the rest of the bonnano higher ups) wouldn't believe that mirra knew that brasco was an agent, let alone brought him into the family as an undercover.
"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business"
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: ChardeeMcDennis]
#738316
09/04/13 11:38 AM
09/04/13 11:38 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 840
funkster
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 840
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i don't see how massino or anyone else could have thought that mirra was in on it from the beginning and helped brasco infiltrate the family because when he got out of prison he had a series of sit downs over donnie brasco where he lied about brasco stealing 250k from him in a drug deal, the obvious motive being convincing the family that donnie should be killed. no informant would be dumb enough to do this to his FBI handler.
for this reason i (and probably massino and the rest of the bonnano higher ups) wouldn't believe that mirra knew that brasco was an agent, let alone brought him into the family as an undercover. My knowledge on the situation is limited. Is this 250K the same situation that Lefty is flippin out about in his discussion of the Mirra sit down on the posted wiretaps? I have my doubts as well...as Mirra seemed to be a gangster to the core. But, then again, so did Scarpa.
Last edited by funkster; 09/04/13 11:39 AM.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: Lou_Para]
#738468
09/05/13 07:32 AM
09/05/13 07:32 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 57
ChardeeMcDennis
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i don't see how massino or anyone else could have thought that mirra was in on it from the beginning and helped brasco infiltrate the family because when he got out of prison he had a series of sit downs over donnie brasco where he lied about brasco stealing 250k from him in a drug deal, the obvious motive being convincing the family that donnie should be killed. no informant would be dumb enough to do this to his FBI handler.
for this reason i (and probably massino and the rest of the bonnano higher ups) wouldn't believe that mirra knew that brasco was an agent, let alone brought him into the family as an undercover. The sitdown wasn't about killing Brasco. Mirra didn't need permission to kill a lowly associate. i think he would need permission, or at the very least he'd catch a ton of shit for killing brasco. at the end of the day brasco wasn't made but he was close to lefty and napolitano, they liked him and he made money for them. if a guy like mirra clipped donnie over some bullshit i think there would be problems. especially since was universally hated within the family, there was probably a ton of guys dying for an excuse to hit mirra. and i agree with gary, the first sit down was about ownership, mirra lost, then he made up some bullshit about donnie and another associate who coincidentally was an undercover cop fucking him over on a drug deal stealing 250k. basically his jealousy of donnie becmoing close with lefty and sonny paired with his "if i can't have him noone can" attitude is the reason for the bullshit 250k accusation. he wanted donnie to get clipped. and although the people above obviously don't agree i don't believe that a made guy can ALWAYS just clip any associate just because of his rank, life is rarely that black and white, there's plenty of other factors to take into consideration. donnie was close with bonnano members far more powerful than mirra so no way he could just kill him and not catch a ton of shit or even get killed himself over it. i'm sorry but i just don't buy that the rule is completely black and white that any made man can kill any associate and nothing happen about it. if the associate in question is well liked or a big earner then killing him is bound to piss off some members.
Last edited by ChardeeMcDennis; 09/05/13 07:36 AM.
"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business"
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: ChardeeMcDennis]
#738475
09/05/13 08:45 AM
09/05/13 08:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418 Secret location (WITSEC)
HairyKnuckles
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418
Secret location (WITSEC)
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Brasco was "on the record" with Lefty (and not all associates are "on the record" with a made guy). All killings have to be approved by higher ups. It´s not like Mirra at will could go around killing associates, especially not guys who were "on the record" with the Bonannos, without any reprecussions. Anybody who thinks Mirra could do this, need to learn how to differentiate the Mafia from an ordinary street gang. It was Lefty who officially had claimed Brasco, even though Brasco knew Mirra first. The sitdown was about Brasco secretly cutting up junk money with Rocky, another undercover cop, who was "close to" Mirra. Mirra wanted a portion af Brasco´s share, claiming Brasco belonged to him. The sit down ended in Lefty´s favor because it was determined that Brasco belonged to Lefty. If it would have gone in Mirra´s favor, Brasco would have been in deep shit, to say the least.
I don´t know what happened to Rocky. The guy is a mystory. How exactly he was persuaded by Mirra to go along with his scam is beyond me. Rocky was a cop but in this situation, he took a huge risk by letting himself be the cause of somebody potentially getting killed. (I doubt he knew Brasco was a fellow cop.) Talk about a bad day on the job! What was he thinking??? Somehow though, Mirra must have had his claws deep into him.
The files released on Mirra are heavily redacted. But one need to be blind not to see the very detailed accounts on Mirra´s wherabouts and business dealings from around 1981. Mirra, if an informant, could easily have been the source who provided the FBI with this detailed info. If not an informant, the info probably came from Rocky.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: Lefty_Ruggerio]
#738487
09/05/13 10:43 AM
09/05/13 10:43 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653 Illinois
F_white
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653
Illinois
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Never hear this stuff great find Lefty_Ruggerio.
From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: Lefty_Ruggerio]
#738496
09/05/13 12:50 PM
09/05/13 12:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 145 Stockholm
goldhawkroad
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 145
Stockholm
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Sorry for OT, but does "way of the wiseguy" add any value after reading the two Donnie Brasco books? Came to mind after reading this thread, specially as the copy I ordered had a CD attached with what I think is that scam discussion between Lefty and Donnie.
Last edited by goldhawkroad; 09/05/13 12:52 PM.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: HairyKnuckles]
#738503
09/05/13 02:03 PM
09/05/13 02:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 727 Northumberland England
GaryH
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 727
Northumberland England
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I don´t know what happened to Rocky. The guy is a mystery. How exactly he was persuaded by Mirra to go along with his scam is beyond me Mirra would have persuaded him the same way he persuaded everyone else! (fear)
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: dixiemafia]
#738520
09/05/13 03:44 PM
09/05/13 03:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418 Secret location (WITSEC)
HairyKnuckles
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418
Secret location (WITSEC)
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I don´t know what happened to Rocky. The guy is a mystery. How exactly he was persuaded by Mirra to go along with his scam is beyond me Mirra would have persuaded him the same way he persuaded everyone else! (fear) Yeah. You are most probably right. Mirra had a fearsome reputation. Yea I agree there is no way Mirra could have whacked Brasco because he belonged to Lefty and Sonny Black. Actually in the book Brasco says himself he was closer to Sonny in the end than he was Lefty.
With Sonny being a captain and say Mirra clipped Brasco I'd imagine there would have been a huge problem in the family. If you listen to the tapes, you can clearly hear the frustration in Pistone´s voice while speaking to Lefty. He even snaps at him a couple of times. In the book, Pistone says that he was sick and tired of Lefty and found Sonny Black a more pleasant guy to be around. Keep also in mind that Sonny Black was not "only" a captain. He was extremely close to Massino and Rastelli, while Mirra was not. In fact, at one point, Sonny Black became a member of a ruling panel temporary heading the Family, indicating how powerful he was at the time.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: HairyKnuckles]
#738558
09/05/13 08:13 PM
09/05/13 08:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,099
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,099
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I don´t know what happened to Rocky. The guy is a mystery. How exactly he was persuaded by Mirra to go along with his scam is beyond me Mirra would have persuaded him the same way he persuaded everyone else! (fear) Yeah. You are most probably right. Mirra had a fearsome reputation. Yea I agree there is no way Mirra could have whacked Brasco because he belonged to Lefty and Sonny Black. Actually in the book Brasco says himself he was closer to Sonny in the end than he was Lefty.
With Sonny being a captain and say Mirra clipped Brasco I'd imagine there would have been a huge problem in the family. If you listen to the tapes, you can clearly hear the frustration in Pistone´s voice while speaking to Lefty. He even snaps at him a couple of times. In the book, Pistone says that he was sick and tired of Lefty and found Sonny Black a more pleasant guy to be around. Keep also in mind that Sonny Black was not "only" a captain. He was extremely close to Massino and Rastelli, while Mirra was not. In fact, at one point, Sonny Black became a member of a ruling panel temporary heading the Family, indicating how powerful he was at the time. Good Point Hairy. I agree that Donnie(Pistone) was clearly frustrated. In fact in his book he mentioned taht one time Lefty chewed him out about the stupid air conditioning and donnie nearly blew his cover because he wanted to beat the crap out of lefty because of the way he treated him. As frustrating as Lefty was it was nothing compared to Mirra. Sonny Black and Donnie got along because they talked abut other things besides the mafia
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: JCrusher]
#738961
09/08/13 11:05 PM
09/08/13 11:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 840
funkster
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 840
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Who was Mirra's capo? Sabella?
Last edited by funkster; 09/08/13 11:29 PM.
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Re: Donnie Brasco Wiretap
[Re: NickyEyes1]
#757219
01/06/14 12:05 AM
01/06/14 12:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 45
karona1
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 45
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Pacino's impression of Lefty was spot on to a T. ..in the end, i believe lefty ruggerio got a "pass" , even after the contract was out on him was out because he didnt talk . is that right?
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