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The Senate Chart Redux #739693
09/13/13 11:15 AM
09/13/13 11:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Off and on people have commented on the chart the Senate committee used to show who was who in the Corleone family, and many people have correctly noted the chart is not completely accurate. Two striking examples are that they had Fredo in a much higher position than he really had, and they had Tom as the Consigliere, even though he was more of a quasi-consigliere. Also Rocco and Neri are not given "credit" on the chart for their standing in the family.

This raises the question of how did this chart get created? I think the answer is not as much from what Pentangeli told the FBI but how the family was perceived by outsiders such as Hyman Roth. Don't forget the senate lawyer Questadt was "owned" by Roth.

For those reasons I do not think we can rely on the chart to correct misimpressions because the chart itself was not at all accurate.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Senate Chart Redux [Re: dontomasso] #739722
09/13/13 01:34 PM
09/13/13 01:34 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
What do you mean with Rocco and Neri not given credit? They were listed as caporegimes...


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: The Senate Chart Redux [Re: Sonny_Black] #739741
09/13/13 02:10 PM
09/13/13 02:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,550
AZ
dt, I think the chart--the entire scene--was another example of FFC's fanatical attention to authenticity and detail. The Senate hearing room was a perfect mockup of the room used in the Valachi hearings in 1963. The charts were exact copies of the formats used in those hearings. Check here:

http://www.gangrule.com/galleries/family-charts

And, the final bit of authenticity: FFC's charts had inaccuracies in them--just as did the Valachi charts. FBI paid scanta attention to Mafia before Valachi, and had little detailed intelligence. Valachi wasn't high up in the Mafia, and the charts used at the hearings were based on his generalizations, plus what the FBI kluged together from various sources, in order to make it look like they weren't asleep for all those decades.

Now, a law question: Hagen was listed as consigliere. Wouldn't that make him "house counsel" and disqualify him from representing Michael--as was Bruce Cutler at Gotti's last trial?


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Re: The Senate Chart Redux [Re: Turnbull] #740059
09/16/13 10:30 AM
09/16/13 10:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Turnbull


Now, a law question: Hagen was listed as consigliere. Wouldn't that make him "house counsel" and disqualify him from representing Michael--as was Bruce Cutler at Gotti's last trial?


Absolutely. If he was a suspect, he could not act as a lawyers, and the "Crime-fraud" exception to attorney-client confidentiality would apply.

Michael was pretty cagey however. Tom was out as consigliere to HIM (not to Vito) and he always referred to him as "my lawyer," so maybe he slipped through.

Then again there is good old directorial license!


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Senate Chart Redux [Re: dontomasso] #740092
09/16/13 04:14 PM
09/16/13 04:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
DT, how sure are you about that. While much of what goes on at a Senate hearing is subject to statute, Senate rules may also apply, thus permitting a consigilere's representation of a committee witness.


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Re: The Senate Chart Redux [Re: olivant] #740175
09/17/13 08:03 AM
09/17/13 08:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
I am sure about the crime-fraud exception to attorney client privilege, and Tom was definitely involved in crimes (of course if they didnt have proof that would be something else).

If they had Tom listed as a consigliere, and as high up on the chart as he was, I think they could have subpoeaned him.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


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