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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: olivant]
#757875
01/09/14 05:57 PM
01/09/14 05:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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As you point out, Tom was already inclined to accept Sol's deal--and Sol knew it. He also knew that "Sonny was hot for my deal," so he wanted Tom to rein in Sonny's temper and get him to accept the deal that he was hot for.
Keep in mind what Tom said after the kidnapping: "If your father dies, Sonny--you make the deal." I emphasized "if your father dies" because Tom was giving Sonny the same lawyerly advice he would have given if Sol hadn't snatched him.
BTW: It was the wrong advice. If Vito had died and Sonny made the deal, Clem and Tess, whose loyalty he would have needed, would have lost respect for Sonny because his gaffe at the Sol meeting had emboldened Sol to take his shot at Vito. The troops might even have believed that Sonny welcomed his father's demise so he could be on his own and get into drugs. Sonny would have needed to fight Sol even if Vito died, just to redeem himself.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: Mr. Blonde]
#757931
01/10/14 03:11 AM
01/10/14 03:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98 New York, NY
Questadt
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
New York, NY
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In my opinion, Sollozzo's kidnapping of Tom served no more practical purpose than to guarantee him an opportunity to make his pitch to Tom, in a controlled environment, at a time when Sollozzo believed his own life to be in danger from Sonny (which it was). That was really the source of urgency for Sollozzo: to reach a deal and attain a sense of equilibrium quickly - before Sonny had a chance to strike back.
I don't view the kidnapping as Sollozzo's attempt to intimidate Tom into anything, as his only intention was to reason with Tom - not to threaten him. If you'll recall, he even made an attempt to put Tom at ease, by telling him: "I know you're not in the muscle end of the family Tom, so I don't want you to be scared."
Of course, when Vito survived the assassination attempt, that threw a wrench into Sollozzo's entire plan. Especially when it became clear that he had no Plan B prepared in the event of such a contingency. That really was the beginning of the end for The Turk.
Last edited by Questadt; 01/10/14 03:28 AM.
"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: Turnbull]
#757949
01/10/14 10:34 AM
01/10/14 10:34 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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BTW: It was the wrong advice. If Vito had died and Sonny made the deal, Clem and Tess, whose loyalty he would have needed, would have lost respect for Sonny because his gaffe at the Sol meeting had emboldened Sol to take his shot at Vito. The troops might even have believed that Sonny welcomed his father's demise so he could be on his own and get into drugs. Sonny would have needed to fight Sol even if Vito died, just to redeem himself.
I don't know about that. Vito's refusal was wrong or, at least, shortsighted. While he may have been right in the long term that drugs would destroy them, there was too much $$$ there for anyone to refuse, as Don Zaluchi pointed out at the Don's meeting. Drugs were coming, and Vito's attempt to bar the door against them only cost the Corleones a lot of money and blood before he capitulated. In fact, Sonny making the deal may have cemented the loyalty of Tessio and Clemenza. If the concern was that Sonny was too much of a hothead, him putting good business over emotion may have calmed the Capos' concerns about his temperament. He could always avenge his father down the road.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#757962
01/10/14 12:00 PM
01/10/14 12:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Sol wanted Tom to get the message first hand because he thought that Sonny was now the head of the family, with Vito "dead." His threat that it would be "bad luck for you" if Sonny did not make the deal was a collective "you," meaning the corleone family.
Don't forget at this point in time it was Barzini behind Sol, not Tatt, as everyone believed. Barzini's ambition was to become the top Capo in New York, something that would have been easy with Vito oout of the way, thus in the truest sense Tatt and Sol and even Sol's drug deal were stalking horses for Barz.
Had Vito died, Sonny would have lashed out and ended up dead just as he did even though vito lived. Bottom line, Santino was a bad don, and being businessmen, Clemenza and Tessio would have ceded to Barz leaving Sonny dead, and Tom hanging out there with no muscle. Tom would have either disappeared to Vegas or somewhere or been killed hiself.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: dontomasso]
#758591
01/14/14 10:01 AM
01/14/14 10:01 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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Vito had to good sense to realize he would lose political and judicial support if he went into drugs the same way he went into women, gambling and labor unions, but Sonny did not. But did Vito really lose any support by going into the drug trade? We tend to take that as an article of faith, but is there any evidence it actually happened? When Vito realized he couldn't hold off the drug trade any longer, he quickly agreed to provide the very protection he had just said that he wouldn't be able to provide for the drug trade. We're given no reason to think that he was unable to provide it. In fact, while the judges and politicians on Vito's payroll refused to come to Connie's wedding, Michael - after years of involvement in the drug trade - had a United States Senator give a speech in his backyard.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#758603
01/14/14 11:43 AM
01/14/14 11:43 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
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Vito had to good sense to realize he would lose political and judicial support if he went into drugs the same way he went into women, gambling and labor unions, but Sonny did not. When Vito realized he couldn't hold off the drug trade any longer, he quickly agreed to provide the very protection he had just said that he wouldn't be able to provide for the drug trade. We're given no reason to think that he was unable to provide it. W, Vito's only reason for providing his requested assistance with the drug trade was to secure Michael's safe return to the US. In lieu of that need, there is nothing to indicate that he would have still supplied the requested assistance.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: The Kidnapping of Tom
[Re: olivant]
#758605
01/14/14 12:01 PM
01/14/14 12:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Vito had to good sense to realize he would lose political and judicial support if he went into drugs the same way he went into women, gambling and labor unions, but Sonny did not. When Vito realized he couldn't hold off the drug trade any longer, he quickly agreed to provide the very protection he had just said that he wouldn't be able to provide for the drug trade. We're given no reason to think that he was unable to provide it. W, Vito's only reason for providing his requested assistance with the drug trade was to secure Michael's safe return to the US. In lieu of that need, there is nothing to indicate that he would have still supplied the requested assistance. I think the terms of the compromise were such that vito could give limited protection. As long as it was being sold in the dark areas," while cops, poloticians and judges probably would not case, especially if it wasn't being sold to kids, or in the neighborhoods of their consitituents. And btw Oli there was an indication Vito would supply assistance. Baraini, when summarizing the compromise said that Corleone would provide protection "in the East."
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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