1. Of all the rehashed topics on these forums, ranking families has to be #1. And it inevitably leads to crime family homerism that we see in this thread.

2. The estimates of the current size of the Outfit, from several FBI officials in Chicago, are what they are: 25-30 made members and "a little over 100 associates." The feds have no reason to put out phony or misleading figures. If you don't like those figures, and it helps you to sleep better at night by claiming the Outfit is bigger than the FBI says it is, more power to you. But I'll take the feds over somebody's "gut" any day of the week.

3. The Outfit is not "barely functioning" or "dying." It is still a viable, active mob family. But the Outfit of the 21st century is much closer to the few remaining small families outside New York than it is to any of the NY families. If we compare apples to apples, and go with official estimates, the families in New England or Philadelphia, for example, are said to have 40-50 made members and about 100 associates. So the Outfit has roughly the total manpower each of those families do. The member-to-associate ratio is just a little different.

4. There is little west of Chicago for the Outfit to have any influence over at this point. There is no formally structured, viable family remaining west of Chicago. And the Outfit itself has little presence left in Las Vegas and little-to-no presence elsewhere in the west. The vast majority of it's operations do not extend beyond Chicago and it's suburbs.

5. No government or law enforcement official has ever said the Outfit generates more money than any other single Italian OC entity in the U.S.

6. Indictments are the single clearest sign of a family's activity, especially over the long run. It's why we see so many in New York, less so in places like Philadelphia or Chicago, and none in places like Denver or San Francisco. This is a simple concept that anyone can understand.

7. Considering the Outfit has very little interest in the drug trade, the Mexican cartels and DTO's probably have little impact on it in Chicago.

8. While it's true that the Outfit has been one of the more disciplined and secretive families, including in recent years, it's attrition that is the real factor to consider and what will ultimately lead to the Outfit's end.

9. In terms of the American mob in the 21st century, New York is the center of the universe. Now more than ever. Roughly 75% of it's remaining membership belong to the 5 NY families.

10. Simply being a local, "walking the streets," or being "on the ground" in a given area does not afford one the type of inside knowledge so many on these forums have pretended to have. Sorry but living in the right zip code doesn't mean you know who is running the local crime family, how many members it has, or how much it makes. To pretend so is an insult to the intelligence of others on these boards.

Actually,quoting the FBI, who by their own admission disseminates misinformation, and in fact went to the Supreme court for the right to do so, is what is intellectually inert, and insulting
Having said that, you did manage to get a few things right this time in your bullet pointed diatribe, none of which contradicts however what many of us have been saying all along

Finally, no, Joe and Jane Normal and their 2.5 kids and their dog who live in the 60018 area code would for the most part not even notice what is plain as day to those of us who visit and do business the 60018 area code, (Just one example) and know what it “looks like” and know people, are a hell of a lot more a reliable source than someone who has never been to Rosemont except to the car show at the Stephans center, and relay on the FBI to tell the truth

Not even in the same galaxy with what I actually said

It's for another thread, but in short, the Calabrase gangs he re4furred to are completely autonomous, not so with the outfit crews.As I have said many times, there is no such organization as 'Ndrangheta. That is simply a blanket name for a loosely connected collection of gangs.There is however, an organization called the outfit. That is the difference

I think we both know that's just a weak attempt on your part to throw what the feds say out the window whenever it suits you.



You're playing the same geography card that many before you have. Judging by the comments in this very thread, I'd argue not living in some of these areas can an advantage. That way, one doesn't have a dog in the fight, so to speak, and doesn't feel inclined to get defensive for the sake of one's hometown crime family. They can look at the evidence totally objectively.

You're a good example of what I was talking about before. Even if there was still a family in Rockford that was making new members, it's not like you simply living there would make you privy to that info. Just so you can turn around and post about it online. You undercut your arguments with your own ridiculous claims.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, the Outfit is still functioning as one single family, with Elmwood park at the top, headed by Johnny DiFronzo, even though Cicero is the larger crew numbers wise?

I never post in these threads because they're nothing but trouble. But I'll say this much: I don't care where you're from. New York, Chicago, Salt Lake City, or Boise Fucking Idaho. If your self-esteem is directly tied into the strength of your local criminal organization, then you don't belong on these boards. You belong in a psychiatrist's office .

I think he meant to elaborate more on the current structure of the Outfit.

With that said, I'll give my interpretation as to the Outfit's past and present structure based on what I've read over the years. A lot of this is educated conjecture so please don't take offense if it doesn't jive with your notions on how the Outfit operates or operated.

As far as the present is concerned, I don't think they operate with any traditional LCN organizational structure and, with the possible exception of the Aiuppa/Cerone era, never have. From what little information I have gathered, DiFronzo has taken a backseat and is more or less retired, acting as an advisor in much the same way as Accardo and others before him.

There is still a top boss, (and who it is is up for conjecture, although I have heard D'Amico mentioned many times) but no underboss or consigliere. Below the boss is a committee or panel who function more or less as decision makers and a buffer zone between the street crews and the boss. Guys like Andriacchi, Pete DiFronzo, Solly D, and Inendino (older guys who are more or less retired from street operations) would be here. Below them are the street crews, three or four depending on who you ask and at what time of day, Elmwood Park (Tony Dote), Cicero/Melrose Park (John Matassa, Jr. or Sal Cautadella), Grand Ave. (Albert Vena), and South Side (Toots Caruso), presumed capos in parentheses.

When DiFronzo took over he more or less just had a circle of guys he trusted (Andriacchi, D'Amico, his brothers, Lombardo before he was locked up) who collectively acted as his underboss and consigliere. Jimmy Marcello's position was never definitely stated at any time, although he has been mentioned by the feds as a street boss, the definition of which could mean anything from the boss of Cicero to the top boss on the streets. We will probably never know for sure unless somebody else talks.

When Aiuppa was the top boss, the family functioned more along the lines of traditional LCN, with Aiuppa as boss, Cerone as under, and Al Tornabene as consigliere. From the seventies until Aiuppa's and Cerone's imprisonment in the eighties, the Outfit was as close structurally as it would ever be to the Five Families, with their current administration structure and the institution of the traditional making ceremony. As far as the latter is concerned, I tend to side with Calabrese's testimony as well as Frank's admittance on tape as support of the existence of a making ceremony in this time period.

Prior to Aiuppa, Giancana was more or less by himself at the top of the Outfit with Ricca and Accardo as advisors on an "upper echelon" panel of sorts, which probably included guys like Murray Humphreys and Gus Alex. Making ceremonies may or may not have been in place in some areas of the city under certain crews, but I don't believe it was a requirement - if a guy like Giancana or Battaglia or Buccieri said you were with the Outfit that was good enough. Depending on who you ask, Cerone may have operated as UB towards the end of Mooney's reign.

Before Mooney, during the Nitti/Ricca/Campagna/Accardo reign, the Outfit was, for lack of a better term, a melting pot of criminals of all backgrounds but with a strong Italian core. Guys like Ralph Pierce, Eddie Vogel, and the aforementioned Humphreys were basically the level of LCN capos and were afforded respect as such. This was basically a holdover from the Capone era and non-Italians would continue to play a big part in Outfit operations for the next several decades - although on a gradually reduced scale. Sometime around the late fifties, the Outfit's leadership structure became exclusively Italian, although Hump and Gus Alex were still kept on for their political and financial acumen.

Great post, Snakes.

I keep reading that the FBI is giving out fake information but I find it amusing
They only do that for the outfit.

Are all of the families membership estimates low or just Chicagos?

So they say the outfit has 30 members but they are just lowballing everyone and everyone in Chicago knows there are 100. They say the Genovese have 200-250 but they aren't misleading us with that figure and if they are it's a higher estimate
Right?

The Outfit has always been lower than NYC but the number of non-Italian associates has always been proportionately higher. I don't think the Outfit ever numbered much more than 100 active made/initiated/vested/whatever members.

You could say that the Outfit's numbers were higher if you include all of the Midwest families which were under the Outfit's thumb at one point (and basically acted as Outfit satellites in their respective areas), although they are now all but extinct as functioning organizations.

They don't only do it with the outfit.
Some examples in the past 10 years or so that I happen to be familier with...check for accuracy if you wish.
These are not mistakes, the FBI knew full well the reports were wrong
The Gambino family was "decimated"

"Rockford was extinct, followed by them naming a new boss, followed by them declaring the new boss an Outfit associate, following by them naming a new boss, and again declaring them extinct"

Jake Minnicone was a Colombo associate(He was actually a Buffalo made guy)

The Falange crew was made of old time Buffalo made guys (3 were made, the rest were associates)

Joe Falcone was a Pittston/Scranton Capo (he was a Buffalo capo with strong NE Pennsylvania ties)

Arrests in the Murder of Charlie Coop were imminent (it has been a cold case for 50 years)

I could go on.....

I think he meant to elaborate more on the current structure of the Outfit.

With that said, I'll give my interpretation as to the Outfit's past and present structure based on what I've read over the years. A lot of this is educated conjecture so please don't take offense if it doesn't jive with your notions on how the Outfit operates or operated.

As far as the present is concerned, I don't think they operate with any traditional LCN organizational structure and, with the possible exception of the Aiuppa/Cerone era, never have. From what little information I have gathered, DiFronzo has taken a backseat and is more or less retired, acting as an advisor in much the same way as Accardo and others before him.

There is still a top boss, (and who it is is up for conjecture, although I have heard D'Amico mentioned many times) but no underboss or consigliere. Below the boss is a committee or panel who function more or less as decision makers and a buffer zone between the street crews and the boss. Guys like Andriacchi, Pete DiFronzo, Solly D, and Inendino (older guys who are more or less retired from street operations) would be here. Below them are the street crews, three or four depending on who you ask and at what time of day, Elmwood Park (Tony Dote), Cicero/Melrose Park (John Matassa, Jr. or Sal Cautadella), Grand Ave. (Albert Vena), and South Side (Toots Caruso), presumed capos in parentheses.

When DiFronzo took over he more or less just had a circle of guys he trusted (Andriacchi, D'Amico, his brothers, Lombardo before he was locked up) who collectively acted as his underboss and consigliere. Jimmy Marcello's position was never definitely stated at any time, although he has been mentioned by the feds as a street boss, the definition of which could mean anything from the boss of Cicero to the top boss on the streets. We will probably never know for sure unless somebody else talks.

When Aiuppa was the top boss, the family functioned more along the lines of traditional LCN, with Aiuppa as boss, Cerone as under, and Al Tornabene as consigliere. From the seventies until Aiuppa's and Cerone's imprisonment in the eighties, the Outfit was as close structurally as it would ever be to the Five Families, with their current administration structure and the institution of the traditional making ceremony. As far as the latter is concerned, I tend to side with Calabrese's testimony as well as Frank's admittance on tape as support of the existence of a making ceremony in this time period.

Prior to Aiuppa, Giancana was more or less by himself at the top of the Outfit with Ricca and Accardo as advisors on an "upper echelon" panel of sorts, which probably included guys like Murray Humphreys and Gus Alex. Making ceremonies may or may not have been in place in some areas of the city under certain crews, but I don't believe it was a requirement - if a guy like Giancana or Battaglia or Buccieri said you were with the Outfit that was good enough. Depending on who you ask, Cerone may have operated as UB towards the end of Mooney's reign.

Before Mooney, during the Nitti/Ricca/Campagna/Accardo reign, the Outfit was, for lack of a better term, a melting pot of criminals of all backgrounds but with a strong Italian core. Guys like Ralph Pierce, Eddie Vogel, and the aforementioned Humphreys were basically the level of LCN capos and were afforded respect as such. This was basically a holdover from the Capone era and non-Italians would continue to play a big part in Outfit operations for the next several decades - although on a gradually reduced scale. Sometime around the late fifties, the Outfit's leadership structure became exclusively Italian, although Hump and Gus Alex were still kept on for their political and financial acumen.[/quote]

Well stated

@ivyleague


the fbi indicted that carpinelli (sp) character and his crew with no mention of mafia ties

so can u really just "listen to what the feds say"?

u act like information about a secret society is broadcast on the nine o'clock news

No mention of Mafia ties in the Carparelli indictment? What? He was taking orders from Solly D.

That "the Outfit was only traditional Cosa Nostra during the Aiuppa era" is nonsense, guys.

They always sat on the commission, have always been on the government's lcn chart, etc. Giancana, Ricca, Accardo, all of these guys were hardcore la Cosa nostra, to say otherwise would be ridiculous. Everyone always brings up the "but but Mooney on the wiretap said he thought the making ceremony was goofy" honestly those guys fucked with those wiretaps & lied through their teeth for various reasons so often who the hell knows. New York & the other families have had plenty of high ranking non Italians. And the non Italians in Chicago were never made or let into the INNER inner circle.

John gotti was a quarter Jewish.

Chicago may have some unique peculiarities regarding the way they go about business, but they are traditional cosa Nostra.

It was actually junior gotti that was a 1/4 jew

Veasey was 1/2 polak

No, I agree with these statements. But seeing as how they were halfway across the country and not in the shadow of NYC like Philly, NJ, etc., they ran their family "their way" which at times differed substantially from the east coast guys. Guys like the Hump and Gus Alex were way higher on the food chain in Chicago than similar-type guys in NYC, who was much more closed-minded towards doing business with non-Italians and even non-Sicilians in some instances.

But you are right, and maybe I didn't stress this enough in my earlier post, but they were still LCN, and they still sat on the Commission.

Not to nit pick as I find non italian involvement in LCN early century quite interesting but was this a peculiar Chicago phenom? IE Ill cite Lansky as a prime example. Also Siegel, lepke etc can be noted as prominent Jewish OC figures involved with East coast LCN and being non-italian.

It isn't a Chicago phenomenon, that's a myth. It just looks more prominent on paper because there are less overall members.

It's also always been popular in Chicago for Italians to change their last name to an Irish/American/etc one.

Ah. Interesting. Always been a point of interest for yours.

My thanks.

Little presence in Las Vegas? What is the little presence in terms of activity?

@ Dellacroce "Come on Carm, There may be italians in australia....but only jersey(particularly north jersey) can u find the rare breed of the SUPER ITALIANS!!!"

Super Italians hu, you mean those narcissistic, fruit cake, metro sexual homos who spend most of their time in tanning beds, plucking their eyebrows, fist pumping in the air and have a vocabulary of a 14 year old...fucking guidos, ya some super Italians come out of Jersey alright. Italians from the North East are a fucking embarrassment. Literally a bunch of clowns. As far as the size of the Chicago outfit, if the Outfit wanted to they could have 2000 made members tomorrow all full blooded Italians ready to work. THEY DON'T WANT A LARGE ORGANIZATION for numerous reasons. Look at New York, its been a huge failure for the last 30 years based mainly on its size. The more idiots in your ranks the more loose lips you will have.

@dago

Youse a fugazzy!

And therein the case rests.
Chicago insanity v the rest of the world.

Huron: you sure you want this guy on your team? Wash thy hands old son. Soap n water chop chop if I were you.

What I am sure he means, but has perhaps over stated, is there there are a lot of associates and fringe assciates in the Chicagoland area who never got made. Rockford has opend the books for some, but most are out there earning and kicking up.....that is what he meant

@ dellacroce "Youse a fugazzy!.....You don't really talk like that do you? if the Outfit wanted to they could have 2000 made members tomorrow all full blooded Italians ready to work.


And therein the case rests.
Chicago insanity v the rest of the world.

Huron: you sure you want this guy on your team? Wash thy hands old son. Soap n water chop chop if I were you.

Holy shit, know body ever heard of a figure of speech around here or what? Bunch of John Gotti dick suckers over here.

Fuck New York. A 30 man platoon of U.S. Army Infantrymen would take out the entire New York LCN in 3 days. Bunch of old & middle aged, soccer watching grease ball pricks.

From guys who outside of a layover at O'hare, have never set foot in Chicago...