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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: RedSeal]
#773330
04/16/14 07:19 PM
04/16/14 07:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98 New York, NY
Questadt
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
New York, NY
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...tell him, I ain't no band leader!"
So Woltz dismisses a gun being put to someone's head as something that wouldn't intimidate him into doing anything, but a horse head in his bed makes him capitulate?
I don't think a wealthy and powerful guy like that would have been intimidated by the horse head stunt into casting Johnny. People with lots of money who are used to getting their way in all things don't intimidate easily. There's a big difference between putting up a big bluff to an ostensibly mild-mannered lawyer over dinner, in a situation and an environment that you control completely (or think that you do)...and the visceral feeling of waking up the next morning in a pool of blood, in your very own bed. My sense is that Woltz was feeling very full of himself during the dinner with Tom. He was becoming more pugnacious and belligerent by the minute. But waking up to find the head of his favorite race horse in his bed cut through all of Woltz's swagger & bravado in one fell swoop; demonstrating to him very clearly that the Corleones could get to him in any way they chose, at any time - and that they could easily destroy anything and everything that Woltz held most dear.
"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: RedSeal]
#773355
04/17/14 04:40 AM
04/17/14 04:40 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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As I said in my original post, "People with lots of money who are used to getting their way in all things don't intimidate easily."
I believed that then, and I believe that now.
Woltz would have been completely freaked out by the horse head, as anybody would be. After that, it would have galvanized him. People with lots of money who are used to getting their way in all things sometimes lose touch with reality. Once his bluster failed to imtimidate Tom and Vito, what real power did Woltz have to fight the Corleones? People with lots of money who are used to getting their way in all things are pragmatic. Woltz realized that he was up against an adversary who could kill or ruin him on a minute's notice. It's not worth losing everything to continue a spat against a romantic rival.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: RedSeal]
#773431
04/17/14 06:00 PM
04/17/14 06:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,694
AZ
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As I said in my original post, "People with lots of money who are used to getting their way in all things don't intimidate easily."
I believed that then, and I believe that now.
Woltz would have been completely freaked out by the horse head, as anybody would be. After that, it would have galvanized him. The novel provides more detail. Woltz was intimidated because: 1. The horse killer got past his security, meaning that his security was no good. 2. He boasted to Tom that he was friends with J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI director. But, what could Hoover do for him now? "What was the penalty for killing a horse?" he asked himself. Would the FBI even investigate a horse murder? 3. If that's what Corleone did as a warning, he must have something "infinitely more painful" in store if Woltz still didn't give in. You can infer that Woltz was afraid that, if there was a next time, it'd be his coglioni that were cut off, not a horse's head.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: Turnbull]
#773435
04/17/14 06:51 PM
04/17/14 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325 MI
Lilo
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
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As I said in my original post, "People with lots of money who are used to getting their way in all things don't intimidate easily."
I believed that then, and I believe that now.
Woltz would have been completely freaked out by the horse head, as anybody would be. After that, it would have galvanized him. The novel provides more detail. Woltz was intimidated because: 1. The horse killer got past his security, meaning that his security was no good.2. He boasted to Tom that he was friends with J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI director. But, what could Hoover do for him now? "What was the penalty for killing a horse?" he asked himself. Would the FBI even investigate a horse murder? 3. If that's what Corleone did as a warning, he must have something "infinitely more painful" in store if Woltz still didn't give in. You can infer that Woltz was afraid that, if there was a next time, it'd be his coglioni that were cut off, not a horse's head. This is a really important point. Some guy on the east coast who you've only heard of obliquely has the power and worse yet, the interest, to reach out to you in Hollywood and buy off or scare off your security workers over something as silly as a part in a movie. He knows about your links to the FBI and is evidently unconcerned. You start to realize, as Hagen hinted, that this person is not entirely rational on the subject of his godson. Could you still fight him? Sure. Could you win? Maybe. But are you willing to take that chance. Nope.
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Winter is Coming
Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: Pretty_Amberg]
#777216
05/12/14 02:48 PM
05/12/14 02:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468 With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Woltz was also a pedophile. His reputation might have also taken a hit if that had come out. Maybe...maybe not. In those days the press did not cover that stuff. In an uncut scene Vito rejected exposing this (even though he was personally appalled) as a way to get him.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: RedSeal]
#777242
05/12/14 03:47 PM
05/12/14 03:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385 Tampa, FL
waynethegame
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
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Turnbull brings up a great point; in the novel I think the real reason Woltz was so taken aback was twofold:
1) This "nobody" from New York was able to infiltrate his mansion with its private security as though it was nothing, not only getting to his stable but getting into his bedroom. For someone bragging how they had a "personal relationship" with J. Edgar Hoover and all the power that Woltz thought he had (I believe the novel states that he had dined at the White House), his defenses were nothing. A bigshot was brought low and humiliated by some "obscure importer of Italian Olive Oil"
2) Don Corleone had no issues killing a racehorse worth a lot of money (I can't remember the exact amount, but I think it was several hundred thousand?) simply because Johnny Fontaine didn't get a part in a movie. To Woltz, that was unfathomable because of his lifestyle - who would destroy a magnificent racehorse over something as petty as someone not getting a part in a movie? I think moreso that demonstrated that, beyond the implication that Woltz might be next, that Don Corleone had zero problems with doing everything in his power to ruin Woltz over something so trivial.
Wayne
"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger." Don Lucchesi
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: Turnbull]
#782317
06/06/14 06:30 AM
06/06/14 06:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 64 Pittsburgh, PA
HamptonHitMan
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 64
Pittsburgh, PA
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Could you still fight him? Sure. Could you win? Maybe. But are you willing to take that chance. Nope. The novel makes exactly that point. Vito asks Tom if Woltz has "real balls." Tom thinks: Woltz has character, he has strength...but would he be willing to risk all on a point honor? He replies to Vito: "You're asking if he's a Sicilian. The answer is no. As I was reading down this thread, I was instantly taken to the Don's conversation with Tom and whether Woltz had balls. Turnbull hit the nail on the head. Tom's answer to Vito completely answered the question. Woltz may have been powerful in his world but he wasn't "sicillian" and ultimately knew he had no chance against the Corleones. Was it a deleted scene or from the book? In my mind I, really can't distinguish. I've read the book and watched the movies so many times that they all run together sometimes.
Last edited by HamptonHitMan; 06/06/14 06:33 AM.
Salute! Rick
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: HamptonHitMan]
#782322
06/06/14 06:44 AM
06/06/14 06:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,030
Texas
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Was it a deleted scene or from the book? In my mind I, really can't distinguish. I've read the book and watched the movies so many times that they all run together sometimes.
The novel elaborately explains how Tom appreciated Vito's question and Tom's well considered answer to it. It just as elaborately explains Woltz's perspective.
Last edited by olivant; 06/06/14 06:44 AM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: "And if that goombah tries any rough stuff...
[Re: waynethegame]
#783044
06/10/14 07:20 AM
06/10/14 07:20 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 46 Indiana
Bozak
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 46
Indiana
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Turnbull brings up a great point; in the novel I think the real reason Woltz was so taken aback was twofold:
1) This "nobody" from New York was able to infiltrate his mansion with its private security as though it was nothing, not only getting to his stable but getting into his bedroom. For someone bragging how they had a "personal relationship" with J. Edgar Hoover and all the power that Woltz thought he had (I believe the novel states that he had dined at the White House), his defenses were nothing. A bigshot was brought low and humiliated by some "obscure importer of Italian Olive Oil"
2) Don Corleone had no issues killing a racehorse worth a lot of money (I can't remember the exact amount, but I think it was several hundred thousand?) simply because Johnny Fontaine didn't get a part in a movie. To Woltz, that was unfathomable because of his lifestyle - who would destroy a magnificent racehorse over something as petty as someone not getting a part in a movie? I think moreso that demonstrated that, beyond the implication that Woltz might be next, that Don Corleone had zero problems with doing everything in his power to ruin Woltz over something so trivial. Woltz didn't think that Vito was a "nobody." At dinner, he tells Tom, "why didn't you tell me you worked for Corleone." He knew exactly who he was, he just underestimated the length that Vito would go to to take care of his god son.
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