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Why did the CIA choose Giancana? #819942
12/20/14 08:53 AM
12/20/14 08:53 AM
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FrankMazola Offline OP
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Why did the CIA and Pentagon reach out to Momo Giancana in Chicago and not any of the 5 Bosses in New York or the Commission itself when they were planning to whack Castro?

Last edited by FrankMazola; 12/20/14 08:55 AM.

F. Mazola, Esq.
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819945
12/20/14 10:21 AM
12/20/14 10:21 AM
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For what it's worth, my guess would be that if they reached out to a NY family, it would have been a topic for discussion at a Commission meeting. Then it would no longer be a secret. And I don't think the FBI and CIA always got along so well when J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI. I know for a fact the FBI had snitches in NY at the time, Greg Scarpa being the one that comes to mind.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819947
12/20/14 10:25 AM
12/20/14 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: FrankMazola
Why did the CIA and Pentagon reach out to Momo Giancana in Chicago when they were planning to whack Castro?


They had mutual "friends".


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Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819953
12/20/14 10:40 AM
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In the book J. Edgar Hoover; The Man and The Secrets, by Curt Gentry on page 460 it says that when the FBI guys broke into the Armory Lounge which was a place around the Chicago Outfit, the FBI men were stunned to discover boxes full of electronic listening devices that were only a fraction of the size of the FBI's microphones. So they assumed it was from the CIA, but it came as a surprise that the CIA and Outfit were in bed together, so to speak.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819954
12/20/14 10:42 AM
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Because of the Kennedy connection

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819960
12/20/14 11:03 AM
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I googled Carlo Gambino and the CIA not too long back, If I remember correctly Carlo turned the CIA down.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819987
12/20/14 01:49 PM
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Giancana was extremely powerful and well-connected, both in the U.S. and other countries, including Cuba. His efforts to help in the 1960 election probably was some type indication to the CIA that he would be receptive to such a challenge to eliminate Castro. Giancana was also aligned with Johnny Roselli who was considered a man who could "get things done."Just speculation on my part.

I would guess that the N.Y. Families were reluctant to get involved with CIA.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: GaryMartin] #819989
12/20/14 02:07 PM
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They chose Roselli first and he approached the other bosses like santo and marcello.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819990
12/20/14 02:08 PM
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To correct my above post, the CIA approached Gambino at the height of his power to kill Martin Luther King Jr, but Gambino refused because of the way they 'messed up Cuba'



Myron Billett was a messenger and go-between for Chicago Mafia don, Sam Giancana. In January l968 Giancana asked Billett to make the arrangements for "a very important meeting" between New York Mafia leader Carlo Gambino and some government representatives. Billett set up the meeting at a motel in Apalachin, New York, the site of an early l960s mob summit.

Billett said that at the meeting (which he attended) the three representatives of the CIA and FBI asked Carlo Gambino if he would accept a $l million contract to assassinate Martin Luther King. Billett recalled the exact words of Gambino's reply: "In no way would I or the family get involved with you people again. You messed up the Cuba deal. You messed up the Kennedy deal."

The CIA and FBI men said they would make "other arrangements" and departed

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: GaryMartin] #819993
12/20/14 02:13 PM
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If anybody wants to learn more about the CIA/Outfit connection, a good start would be some research on Bob Mehue. It appears to me that Mehue was connected to both FBI and CIA while at the same time working as a PI for mob guys. At least that is what pro conspiracy people believes. I am no wxpert on him or the connection but maybe there are other posters on here who can add to to this story. Here is a link to a small excerpt talking about Mehue and Giancana:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%...T/Item%2004.pdf


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Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #819995
12/20/14 02:31 PM
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there are so many stories about this cia-mafia connection, that I don't think anyone actually knows what happened. ive read the book about hoover, that was posted, and the fbi did find state of the art electronics, santo trafficante said it was all B.S. and giancana in a wiretap said he was using the cia.

roselli, In frattianos book "the last Mafioso" says they were just using the cia. ive never heard of the fbi going to Gambino wanting to get rid of martin luther king. and ive read a lot of books on the subject. like to know the source of that story.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Fleming_Ave] #819996
12/20/14 02:40 PM
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mulberry Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fleming_Ave
For what it's worth, my guess would be that if they reached out to a NY family, it would have been a topic for discussion at a Commission meeting. Then it would no longer be a secret. And I don't think the FBI and CIA always got along so well when J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI. I know for a fact the FBI had snitches in NY at the time, Greg Scarpa being the one that comes to mind.


I'm sure there were snitches in Chicago at the time too. Scarpa was a nobody in 1960 and wouldn't have been informed of the plot. Besides, he didn't start snitching until 1962

Last edited by mulberry; 12/20/14 02:42 PM.
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #820058
12/20/14 08:35 PM
12/20/14 08:35 PM
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The CIA had connections with Marcello in New Orleans, and Trafficante in Tampa. Through both of them, the CIA made contact with Tommy Lucchese, a New York boss, who in turned helped to try and assassinate Castro, Santo promissed Lucchese a nicely share in the casinos in Cuba once Castro was gone. CIA got in contact with Joe Civello the boss of Dallas through Marcello. CIA got into contact with Giancanna through Johnny Rostelli. Never heard of Gambino being approached, but we may never know the full story of the CIA-Mafia relationship.


"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Giacomo_Vacari] #820062
12/20/14 09:21 PM
12/20/14 09:21 PM
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GaryMartin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Giacomo_Vacari
The CIA had connections with Marcello in New Orleans, and Trafficante in Tampa. Through both of them, the CIA made contact with Tommy Lucchese, a New York boss, who in turned helped to try and assassinate Castro, Santo promissed Lucchese a nicely share in the casinos in Cuba once Castro was gone. CIA got in contact with Joe Civello the boss of Dallas through Marcello. CIA got into contact with Giancanna through Johnny Rostelli. Never heard of Gambino being approached, but we may never know the full story of the CIA-Mafia relationship.


Since Roselli and Giancana were killed within about a year of each other there were all kinds of rumors about why they were killed. Some people felt they were "silenced" because of their involvement in the Castro deal, while others said they were also involved in the assassination of Pres. Kennedy. Regardless, Trafficante played some role in the Castro plot and may,or may not, have been involved in the Kennedy assassination. All this led to speculation that two out of three people who played a role in the Castro plot were dead. The government tried to get Trafficante to talk but he "took the 5th" or gave innocuous answers and was able to dodge relevant questions about what happened in both situations. Having really good lawyers helped.

But I agree with you, we will probably never know for sure what transpired.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #820071
12/20/14 11:56 PM
12/20/14 11:56 PM
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As GaryMartin pointed out, the Outfit had some well connected and powerful guys.During the mid 50's and early 60's,the Chicago family was the most powerful o.c. group in the U.S. They expanded their operations(legal or illegal) all over the world,including Mexico,Cuba,Panama, Colombia, Ecuador,Jamaica,Western Europe(England,France,Spain,Italy)the Middle East(Israel,Iraq),China and even Japan. Big shots like Manuel Noriega,Ferdinand Marcos,General Omar Torrijos,the Shah of Iran, all received "christmas presents" from the Outfit.The CIA knew about the Outfits connections and they used them to get info’s from all of these countries and to make their own influence around the world.Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain took money and at the same time acted like spy’s for the CIA and were feeding the government officals around the world with money and power(informations,weapons etc.) thus making them their own allies. The CIA is a similar organization as the mafia.Giancana reportedly once said that “the CIA and the mob are two different sides of the same coin".

Giancana was overall boss and he gave the "ok".

Roselli was the "go between guy" with the CIA.

Larner had the smuggling contacts and routes around the world and also handeled the financials.

Cain was connected with Central American CIA training camps ad was also a electronic surveillance expert who specialized in telephone tapping and many other things. Cain had tapped the telephones of government leaders on behalf of the Outfit and the CIA.

Later with the downfall of Giancanas administration, the CIA inherited some of their operations and connections, because the new Outfit administration wasnt interested(or maybe they were thrown out) in continuing these operations.

As for the Castro situation,the Outfit guys received money from the CIA but every time they tried to kill Castro,they “allegedly” failed.In other words they swindled the CIA and extort money from it.The infamous CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro, which were headed by Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain along with their partners, Lansky and Trafficante were pure failure.The mob knew if they killed Castro,they still wont get their casinos back because all of the people in Cuba already supported him.They still were goin to have terrorist attacks and that was bad for business.


Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?

Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #820073
12/21/14 01:39 AM
12/21/14 01:39 AM
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Alfa Romeo Offline
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Originally Posted By: FrankMazola
Why did the CIA and Pentagon reach out to Momo Giancana in Chicago and not any of the 5 Bosses in New York or the Commission itself when they were planning to whack Castro?



The simplest answer is sometimes the right one.

It could be that Giancana was operating in Cuba.


"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Alfa Romeo] #820081
12/21/14 03:40 AM
12/21/14 03:40 AM
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mickey2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alfa Romeo
Originally Posted By: FrankMazola
Why did the CIA and Pentagon reach out to Momo Giancana in Chicago and not any of the 5 Bosses in New York or the Commission itself when they were planning to whack Castro?



The simplest answer is sometimes the right one.

It could be that Giancana was operating in Cuba.


rolleyes

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: mickey2] #820092
12/21/14 06:30 AM
12/21/14 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: mickey2
Originally Posted By: Alfa Romeo
Originally Posted By: FrankMazola
Why did the CIA and Pentagon reach out to Momo Giancana in Chicago and not any of the 5 Bosses in New York or the Commission itself when they were planning to whack Castro?



The simplest answer is sometimes the right one.

It could be that Giancana was operating in Cuba.


rolleyes


After Batista Fell, Trafficante and Giancana remained in Cuba


"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Toodoped] #820107
12/21/14 08:13 AM
12/21/14 08:13 AM
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GaryMartin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Toodoped
As GaryMartin pointed out, the Outfit had some well connected and powerful guys.During the mid 50's and early 60's,the Chicago family was the most powerful o.c. group in the U.S. They expanded their operations(legal or illegal) all over the world,including Mexico,Cuba,Panama, Colombia, Ecuador,Jamaica,Western Europe(England,France,Spain,Italy)the Middle East(Israel,Iraq),China and even Japan. Big shots like Manuel Noriega,Ferdinand Marcos,General Omar Torrijos,the Shah of Iran, all received "christmas presents" from the Outfit.The CIA knew about the Outfits connections and they used them to get info’s from all of these countries and to make their own influence around the world.Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain took money and at the same time acted like spy’s for the CIA and were feeding the government officals around the world with money and power(informations,weapons etc.) thus making them their own allies. The CIA is a similar organization as the mafia.Giancana reportedly once said that “the CIA and the mob are two different sides of the same coin".

Giancana was overall boss and he gave the "ok".

Roselli was the "go between guy" with the CIA.

Larner had the smuggling contacts and routes around the world and also handeled the financials.

Cain was connected with Central American CIA training camps ad was also a electronic surveillance expert who specialized in telephone tapping and many other things. Cain had tapped the telephones of government leaders on behalf of the Outfit and the CIA.

Later with the downfall of Giancanas administration, the CIA inherited some of their operations and connections, because the new Outfit administration wasnt interested(or maybe they were thrown out) in continuing these operations.

As for the Castro situation,the Outfit guys received money from the CIA but every time they tried to kill Castro,they “allegedly” failed.In other words they swindled the CIA and extort money from it.The infamous CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro, which were headed by Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain along with their partners, Lansky and Trafficante were pure failure.The mob knew if they killed Castro,they still wont get their casinos back because all of the people in Cuba already supported him.They still were goin to have terrorist attacks and that was bad for business.


Well-stated and a very nice summary. There will always be questions about this ordeal. But this post is probably the most that is known at this time. There's always the possibility of classified files that have not been made public, but this (IMO) is the most plausible scenario.

Something I would like to know is whether Ricca & Accardo were supportive of Giancana's involvement with the CIA to kill Castro. I've never heard or read anything about their position. Off topic, but I was told that both (Ricca & Accardo) supported Giancana's efforts to influence the 1960 election.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #820110
12/21/14 09:00 AM
12/21/14 09:00 AM
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I can't remember which book, but I remember reading in one of them that covers New Orleans in depth that Marcello was paid 300K to take out King. Whether its true or not I cannot speculate.

Also was it Cocaine Cowboys where Jon Roberts claims to have been or knew a few guys flying plains over the Cuba for the CIA? (I don't want to say dropping bombs, but doing something clandestine) I'm not sure how credible he is just recalling what I read. I know he was involved with Barry Seal who was flying guns to the rebels in Panama and double dipping by flying drugs back to America.

Funny story right there, the CIA financing in the rebel factions and Panama sending tons of Marijuana and Cocaine right next to where I live in Louisiana.

Here's a link to the major bust in Louisiana from the New York Times accusing Noriega:

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/18/us/170-people-are-indicted-in-huge-drug-operation.html


"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: GaryMartin] #820115
12/21/14 09:14 AM
12/21/14 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: GaryMartin
K
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
As GaryMartin pointed out, the Outfit had some well connected and powerful guys.During the mid 50's and early 60's,the Chicago family was the most powerful o.c. group in the U.S. They expanded their operations(legal or illegal) all over the world,including Mexico,Cuba,Panama, Colombia, Ecuador,Jamaica,Western Europe(England,France,Spain,Italy)the Middle East(Israel,Iraq),China and even Japan. Big shots like Manuel Noriega,Ferdinand Marcos,General Omar Torrijos,the Shah of Iran, all received "christmas presents" from the Outfit.The CIA knew about the Outfits connections and they used them to get info’s from all of these countries and to make their own influence around the world.Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain took money and at the same time acted like spy’s for the CIA and were feeding the government officals around the world with money and power(informations,weapons etc.) thus making them their own allies. The CIA is a similar organization as the mafia.Giancana reportedly once said that “the CIA and the mob are two different sides of the same coin".

Giancana was overall boss and he gave the "ok".

Roselli was the "go between guy" with the CIA.

Larner had the smuggling contacts and routes around the world and also handeled the financials.

Cain was connected with Central American CIA training camps ad was also a electronic surveillance expert who specialized in telephone tapping and many other things. Cain had tapped the telephones of government leaders on behalf of the Outfit and the CIA.

Later with the downfall of Giancanas administration, the CIA inherited some of their operations and connections, because the new Outfit administration wasnt interested(or maybe they were thrown out) in continuing these operations.

As for the Castro situation,the Outfit guys received money from the CIA but every time they tried to kill Castro,they “allegedly” failed.In other words they swindled the CIA and extort money from it.The infamous CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro, which were headed by Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain along with their partners, Lansky and Trafficante were pure failure.The mob knew if they killed Castro,they still wont get their casinos back because all of the people in Cuba already supported him.They still were goin to have terrorist attacks and that was bad for business.


Well-stated and a very nice summary. There will always be questions about this ordeal. But this post is probably the most that is known at this time. There's always the possibility of classified files that have not been made public, but this (IMO) is the most plausible scenario.

Something I would like to know is whether Ricca & Accardo were supportive of Giancana's involvement with the CIA to kill Castro. I've never heard or read anything about their position. Off topic, but I was told that both (Ricca & Accardo) supported Giancana's efforts to influence the 1960 election.




ricca and accardo were smart enough to stay outta that bullshit

giancana ends up dead in his basement because of stupidity

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: FrankMazola] #820118
12/21/14 09:18 AM
12/21/14 09:18 AM
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mulberry Offline
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Giancana wasn't smart enough to know he was dealing with people more treacherous and ruthless than the mafia

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: GaryMartin] #820150
12/21/14 10:34 AM
12/21/14 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: GaryMartin
K
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
As GaryMartin pointed out, the Outfit had some well connected and powerful guys.During the mid 50's and early 60's,the Chicago family was the most powerful o.c. group in the U.S. They expanded their operations(legal or illegal) all over the world,including Mexico,Cuba,Panama, Colombia, Ecuador,Jamaica,Western Europe(England,France,Spain,Italy)the Middle East(Israel,Iraq),China and even Japan. Big shots like Manuel Noriega,Ferdinand Marcos,General Omar Torrijos,the Shah of Iran, all received "christmas presents" from the Outfit.The CIA knew about the Outfits connections and they used them to get info’s from all of these countries and to make their own influence around the world.Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain took money and at the same time acted like spy’s for the CIA and were feeding the government officals around the world with money and power(informations,weapons etc.) thus making them their own allies. The CIA is a similar organization as the mafia.Giancana reportedly once said that “the CIA and the mob are two different sides of the same coin".

Giancana was overall boss and he gave the "ok".

Roselli was the "go between guy" with the CIA.

Larner had the smuggling contacts and routes around the world and also handeled the financials.

Cain was connected with Central American CIA training camps ad was also a electronic surveillance expert who specialized in telephone tapping and many other things. Cain had tapped the telephones of government leaders on behalf of the Outfit and the CIA.

Later with the downfall of Giancanas administration, the CIA inherited some of their operations and connections, because the new Outfit administration wasnt interested(or maybe they were thrown out) in continuing these operations.

As for the Castro situation,the Outfit guys received money from the CIA but every time they tried to kill Castro,they “allegedly” failed.In other words they swindled the CIA and extort money from it.The infamous CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro, which were headed by Giancana,Roselli,Larner,Cain along with their partners, Lansky and Trafficante were pure failure.The mob knew if they killed Castro,they still wont get their casinos back because all of the people in Cuba already supported him.They still were goin to have terrorist attacks and that was bad for business.


Well-stated and a very nice summary. There will always be questions about this ordeal. But this post is probably the most that is known at this time. There's always the possibility of classified files that have not been made public, but this (IMO) is the most plausible scenario.

Something I would like to know is whether Ricca & Accardo were supportive of Giancana's involvement with the CIA to kill Castro. I've never heard or read anything about their position.


To tell you the truth i also never read anything on this subject but i think that Ricca and Accardo supported these operations,especially Accardo since he had interests in the Cuban casinos. I also think that Sam never did anything with out the "ok" from Ricca.


Mongol General: Conan, what is best in life?

Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Toodoped] #820159
12/21/14 11:05 AM
12/21/14 11:05 AM
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JFK assassination writers make the following connections:

Plots against Castro started in the last months of the Eisenhower Administration. They accelerated in the JFK Administration after the Bay of Pigs disaster. JFK took that personally. He appointed the "Cuba Committee" in the CIA and put brother Bobby in charge of it, even though, as Attorney General, he had no statutory authority over the CIA. The CIA contacted Maheu, a former FBI agent with Mob connections. Maheu connected with Roselli, who arranged a meeting with Giancana and Santos Trafficante, the Mob boss of Tampa, FL. Maheu allegedly turned over $100k in CIA cash, plus assorted (and ridiculous) assassination weapons to the two Dons, who presumably would use their Cuban connections to have Castro whacked. The plots and the weapons came to naught.

We have to take this and other accounts of the CIA/Mafia connections with more than a grain of salt because they were never revealed to the Warren Commission, and surfaced much later during the Church Committee and House Select Committee investigations in the late '70s. They were revealed by CIA higher-ups--and we have only their word as to their accuracy.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Turnbull] #820200
12/21/14 02:22 PM
12/21/14 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
JFK assassination writers make the following connections:

Plots against Castro started in the last months of the Eisenhower Administration. They accelerated in the JFK Administration after the Bay of Pigs disaster. JFK took that personally. He appointed the "Cuba Committee" in the CIA and put brother Bobby in charge of it, even though, as Attorney General, he had no statutory authority over the CIA. The CIA contacted Maheu, a former FBI agent with Mob connections. Maheu connected with Roselli, who arranged a meeting with Giancana and Santos Trafficante, the Mob boss of Tampa, FL. Maheu allegedly turned over $100k in CIA cash, plus assorted (and ridiculous) assassination weapons to the two Dons, who presumably would use their Cuban connections to have Castro whacked. The plots and the weapons came to naught.

We have to take this and other accounts of the CIA/Mafia connections with more than a grain of salt because they were never revealed to the Warren Commission, and surfaced much later during the Church Committee and House Select Committee investigations in the late '70s. They were revealed by CIA higher-ups--and we have only their word as to their accuracy.


...Exactly.

And people here should wonder, that if the mafia was completely and utterly routed from Cuba, how was any mafia boss supposed to touch Castro. They had to have someone still operating in the country of Cuba after Batista fell. Someone covert. That is, if the story is true. It's not like Giancana or Trafficante could send a Sicilian hit squad to Castro's house. They would have been made in 0 to 10 nano seconds.


"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: Turnbull] #820208
12/21/14 02:49 PM
12/21/14 02:49 PM
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ht2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
They were revealed by CIA higher-ups--and we have only their word as to their accuracy.

Released CIA documents confirm the Maheu story. Initially, the mob did not know who they were dealing with. They were told that International business investors who lost money were interested in eliminating Castro.

In his autobiography "Reflections of a Cold Warrior", Richard Bissell says he was one of the people who approved the idea to use the mob against Castro. After he resigned in 1962 he claimed he regretted hiring the mob due to security issues. Bissell also said Joe Bonanno Sr. left a message with his office to help the government but never returned his call.

Re: Why did the CIA choose Giancana? [Re: mulberry] #820369
12/22/14 05:00 PM
12/22/14 05:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
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Originally Posted By: mulberry
Giancana wasn't smart enough to know he was dealing with people more treacherous and ruthless than the mafia


I really think there is a lot of truth in that statement, the CIA was using the mob just as much as the mob was using them, and, in the end,when it all came out. giancana, and roselli, got clipped. so who was using who ?



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"

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