Someone brought up Gen Petraeus who is now paying for his crimes regardless of whether you think the punishment is too weak or too strong. He was a great leader other than this affair, but what about Hillary? She allowed Russia to get half of our Uranium reserves even though we know they are helping Iran spread terrorism throughout the middle east and isn't charged with anything (Yet, I hope) and the media continues to love her.

Alfa, you're a thoughtful and intelligent young man, but I would like for you to consider the following in regards to some of your above points. I think what you'll find is quite to the contrary.
ACA was only forecast to curb costs by Obama and absolutely nobody else...the CBO said it would increase costs dramatically and it has by hundreds of percents in many cases...ask anybody who is paying for their own insurance....and they will continue to rise, unless it is repealed.
The wars were what they were...I think we can have an honest debate both ways on them and not sure which side would win..honestly.
TARP was a joke from its inception, only aiding to bail out the cronies who were about to lose their ass--ets...and that, my friend, cut both ways...benefiting both Democrats and Republicans...and by that, I mean the big money people, not the rank and file citizens.
As far as the auto bail outs...those were strictly union paybacks in which shareholders were stiffed out of millions in a bankruptcy action which was unprecedented in US history, as shareholders are always supposed to be first in line as creditors until Obama decided to make the UAW co-owners in an endeavor in which they had no investment...purely unbelievable. And furthermore, that "loan" bailout money has never been paid back...it was paid off with another backdoor bailout so that Obama could run around saying the loan was paid off...not even close. And guess who is making out the best of the big 3 automakers...Ford...the only one who refused bailout money.

Alfa, I don't defend Bush as a president when he did the wrong thing. I agree with you that he shouldn't have created Medicare Part D and also agree that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. (That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have intervened in Iraq, but we could have intervened in other ways.)

Oldschool3 already addressed the ACA. I'll just add that Obama and other Democrats flat out lied to the American people to help pass it, especially with that "You can keep your doctor" line. It also has increased costs for those who have to purchase their own insurance, waiting times have increased, more doctors are quitting, etc. California's version of Obamacare is on it's way to becoming a total failure. Worst of all, it's unconstitutional despite Justice Roberts calling it a tax. It forces people to purchase something or pay a huge fine. Everyone ought to read Judge Roger Vinson's 2011 ruling that unfortunately Justice Roberts ignored.

Agree with you on intervening in Afghanistan, but think it could have been fought better under the president and that our military is often hamstrung by politics which ends up with more American (and allied Afghan) deaths.

The bailout of AIG was probably necessary, but should have had more controls. However, laws in place prevented additional controls and AIG gave out huge bonuses that should never have happened.

The TARP bank bailout is debatable and I'm not sure what the best solution was here.

The bailout of the Detroit auto makers is another story. It mostly went to GM and, as Oldschool3 wrote, Ford stayed out of it. He's right that it bailed out the unions. Without the bailout GM would have had to go to bankruptcy court and the unions would have been forced to take cuts, and another auto maker would have bought them out. Hmm... Fiat comes to mind (Fiat bough Chrysler in 2009 after it went BK -- despite accepting bailout money). That was totally unnecessary and taxpayers are on the hook for $9.26 billion to over $11 billion, depending on the source. Another source says it actually comes to over $16 billion.

Pizza, when I read this a few days ago, I almost spit my coffee onto the computer screen. I just want you to know that, sir.

Thanks for the honesty Faith. On most of your most recent points I don't really have much of a rebuttal because either your points are true, or I simply am not erudite enough to understand the issues that deeply. I agree with most of what you said though.

Thanks very much for the props Old School. To address your post, in the manner it merits, I need to return later with links.

I wish you were wrong. I'm afraid you're right.

Well, I aim to please .


Where there's life, there's hope. But we need more hope than we were promised back in 2008. More change, too .

change? change? you think you are going to get change? if you believe that, I have some land I will sell you in Idaho.

its acreage - behind an old goat trail.

I was being sarcastic. Don't you remember Obama's pitch back then? "Hope and Change."


If I was interested in old goats, I'd pm with you more often .

hey, im glad you still got your sense of humor, that's cool.

Anyone want to take a bet now this will disappear in about a week. Clintons are bulletproof- the media is in the bag for them.

It's hard to claim it's a "right-wing conspiracy" when the New York Times, Reuters and other news agencies praised the book and did their own follow-up stories with even more examples of Clinton corruption.

The nyt et al is just running interference for the clintons. Its a big newsdump so they can get the ugly stuff out of the way before the actual campaign geta started. You are a fool if you think nyt gives two shits about the truth or would dare to ever harm a democrat as important as clinton. In a month this story will be down the memory hole.

It's possible that the New York Times and Reuters want a Democrat even more Left-wing than Hillary, like Elizabeth Warren or Martin O'Malley. I could see them throwing her under the bus for them if they think she's too damaged or compromised to win but believe that someone else even more liberal has a better chance.

BINGO.

I shudder to think what would happen if Elizabeth Warren ever became President. Hillary isn't my favorite candidate right now, but the last thing we need is someone like her.

Fuck I don't even know why I hold any hope. Each party just bitches at the other like an old married couple without any regard to the people they're supposed to be representing. Both sides have become increasingly polarized and the rate this is going we're probably going to get a Cruz vs Warren type election in 16. If that happens I'm casting my vote for Megatron. Because even a robot disguised as a car could do better at this point.

On a more humorous note did anyone see that stupid rapper 'Waka Flaka Flame' announced his candidacy? I'm almost looking forward to that. He's only 28 though so I don't know the hell he'd get legally sworn in

I am not so sure this "Will all go away" like it normally does for both Clintons. I think the more aggressive Republicans will not let it go. I watched the special on it and while there is no concrete evidence there is a lot of consequential evidence and a lot of people have gone to jail based on that

In fact when Hillary was Sec. of State, someone in that department went to prison for doing a lot less than she did. It's just like when Bill Clinton was President his Justice Dept. prosecuted a psychiatrist for lying under oath about sex. She not only lost her medical license, but went to prison. They are both the biggest hypocrites in the country.

Hillary Clinton--- this woman is vicious, and I hate the lady because she is anti-gun to the max.

remember the whitewater investigation? she turned 1000 dollars into a 100,000 in a stock transaction. she beat that rap.

anybody ever hear of vince foster, check him out.

this lady will bring this country to its knees if the cur is elected.

The lady is too old to be President and she doesn't have the required background.

Jeb Bush has more nous.

But really, hasn't the world seen enough Bushes and Clinton's by now?

America needs some new ideas.

But you look at what's out there.... Rubio, Christie.

It's a sea of mediocrity.

You took the words right out of my mouth

Really that's all she wrote. Sure, there's fringe candidates like Kerry Bowers and Bernie Sanders but to most of us they're nobodies. Rand lost my respect when he 360'd on everything he stood for right out of the gate.

That's was the one where she made one trade.

[quote=Moe_Tilden]The lady is too old to be President and she doesn't have the required background.

Like Obama had a better back ground to be president

On her BACK ground. She has so much fat on he Back you can put your dick on her back squeeze the fat on her back over it and actually fuck her back so you don't have to look at that face of hers.

Bernie Sanders [/quote]

A self proclaimed socialist.

Free shit for everyone. Even illegals. Sanders would be a fucking disaster for this country. He would do nothing about immigration.

You can't have a welfare state and open borders.

She's an old hag. She's in the same general age range as Reagan was in '80 and Dole was in '96. And the Left viciously attacked them with the adult diaper and memory loss jokes. Yet if the Right attacks Clinton in a similar fashion, they'll be labeled hateful and sexist.

Fuck her. I hope she goes the plastic surgery route to look younger and comes out looking like the crazy cat lady from the Upper East Side. Or better yet, Mickey Rourke before he had some of his own surgery corrected. Or the best case scenario, she goes in and gets Joan Rivers' anesthesiologist.

What, too soon?

Pizza, you don't even have to go that far back to the Republicans are too old questions. Remember John McCain? It's the same thing with the meme about Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin, yet you hear nothing from the Left questioning Joe Biden's lack of intelligence (hint: a rock collection is smarter than Biden, then he's on top of that he's a dirty, nasty, grabby old man). It's all hypocrisy.

The left did a job on Dole when he ran for President. They even made fun of his arm war injury. I thought older people would get pissed off by that. They weren't it pissed me off. The liberals keep trying to scare old people by playing the you will lose SS if we elect a Republican as President.

I would be afraid if I had to live on just social security.

I forgot about McCain!

Yup, he was 70 when he announced his candidacy in 2007. A whole year older than Hillary will be, come election time. And the press was rabid about how old and out of touch he was.

And that's a strong analogy about the alleged "stupidity" of Quayle as compared to Biden (as VP candidates). Although, I must admit, I hope that Biden runs against her and tears the party apart, a la Teddy Kennedy in 1980. I wouldn't vote for him in the general election. But why should a two-term sitting Vice President step aside for someone just because of here last name? Fuck her.

I can really see why people hate her. But if you voice that opinion, you're automatically labeled a sexist by New York the Times or the Huffington Post (even though she's not very popular among women, either).