Well me neither, which is why I question why they made the offer in the first place. It's just not plausible for Vito to move anywhere and I find highly unlikely that the Bonnanos thought anything different. Surely they knew what the situation was in Montreal and what killing Sciascia meant for their relationship with them.

Maybe they wouldn't have expected him to move, I don't know with any certainty, I'm just assuming that to be the case since Sciascia was a NYC resident. We agree it is likely Vito knew regardless of the precautions Massino took to hide the truth. it was probably just creating a layer of plausible deniability, even if it wasn't a very good one - Could be nobody ever expected Vito to take them up on the offer. If they act like nothing had changed than perhaps Vito would doubt his sources that Massino was behind the hit. It works. It wraps up the loose ends, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a plan. It leaves way too much to chance, and obviously Vito was having none of Joe's bullshit anyway.

Ultimately I question why Joe would even fear Vito finding out the truth. Fear of reprisal? Unlikely. Loss of business interest? Far more plausible. But if we operate under the knowledge that Montreal was establishing itself as an autonomous family with less connection the Bonnanos then there is strong motivation to want to off both Sciascia and Rizzuto, perhaps backing the old Cotroni faction in some way.


I guess my point is this:

if Joe knew the Rizzutos were for all intents and purposes their own family, why invite their boss to be the capo in a foreign borgata, even if he remains in Montreal? It seems unlikely to me that Massino thought that Montreal was still totally onboard up until the Sciascia hit. They must have been parting ways long before that.

But maybe that doesn't really matter so long as the drug connect is still operating through the Bonnanos. But if that's the case, then it still leaves the question: Why make the offer to Vito personally?

That's what bugs me. The offer doesn't seem to make much sense unless it's just a really bad plan. It would make far more sense had they asked Vito to send someone else, to take George's place. It almost seems like a backhanded insult, saying sort of like saying "being a capo in NY is better than being a boss in Montreal".

You have to remember that Vito still controlled the drug routes in and out of Montreal, and I imagine they were paying a pretty big tribute to Massino. He knew more than likely that if Vito found out they clipped Sciascia that they would either retaliate or quit kicking up. I'm sure he didn't quite worry about going to war with them, but he knew he would be losing a LOT of money if they pulled out which with that meeting and the empty chair it seems Sal got the idea with Vito turning down the promotion and when he seen the empty chair he knew their relationship was over.



You have to remember that Sal even admitted in court that they had no idea how many guys were even in the Montreal crew and that goes back to Vito keeping a low profile and his guys keeping a low profile.

The drug routes kept running, but the Bonanno's lost control after Sciascia and of course that catapulted Vito into what the family was just before Massino testified against him....



Sciascia had to come to NYC to report to Massino, Vito at that point did not. After Sciascia was killed there was no way he could get Vito into the U.S. to even kill him. Vito had too many ears and eyes in Canada for Massino to get anyone in there to get to Vito. Nobody in Canada would even try to clip Vito at that point and time.

But really all we can do at this point is guess because nobody has ever flipped up there and probably won't for a while. Until then almost everything is up in the air except Desjardins killing Montagna since he pled guilty to it and there is a publication ban on it....lol

Sciascia was simply the go-between for Montreal & NY during Vito's reign at the top. But he was a man of serious stature in Montreal. And I'm explaining why I think Massino made the capo offer, and it has to do with the NY Bonanno's simply being out of touch with Montreal. When Vitale went to Montreal for that meeting with Vito, Vitale asked how many "soldiers" the Montreal have, Vito responded by saying something along the lines of "we're our own little family. There's about 18, 20 of us, and we stay by ourselves and everybody respects everybody else"...When Vitale went back to NY, he reported to Massino, "They have their own little splinter group".

It was assumed by NY that Montreal didn't have that many made guys, they simply didn't know. There's two reasons for this, which reporters have put forward, one is that in Montreal, Vito didn't do the usual "making ceremonies", no one knows how exactly people were made during this period, but one thing is for sure, it wasn't the typical LCN way, especially in regards to NY, no lists were being passed up to NY with associates names on them, so simply, the guys in NY simply didn't know what the hell was going on with Montreal. Another reason is that this all took place in 2001, the FBI had begun to hit the Mafia, the Bonanno's included so hard with indictments, that they just simply didn't have the manpower to keep up with current events in places outside of NY.

Another thing, Vitale says that Montreal used to kick up big, but the last time he personally saw any envelopes coming from Montreal was around '98-'99. They were still kicking up right up until Sciascia got hit, and then it all stopped. With that said, it becomes a bit more clearer why Massino made a capo offer to Vito, he wanted to keep the money coming in, and he simply did not know how powerful and independent the former Montreal Crew had become. And it's not just Massino, but it continued with Sal Montagna, and he had to find out the hard way that NY had no say in what was going on, he couldn't just come in and takeover because nobody in the Montreal Mafia cared that he was a Bonanno boss. They were the Montreal Mafia, and they put that first, they valued their own relationships over that of an outsiders, and NY simply did not know that.

I don't understand why people think Vito and massino wasn't on good terms untill George gets killed. He new Joe wasnt a joke he was with him when they slaughtered the 3 capos and got all there men to get inline. Vito new he had 100 + guys. Read some book were Vito was caught on a wire helping vinny ocean of the decav family smuggling Persian rugs into USA to get around some type of taxes. So he was probaly doing little deals with all the families. There's probaly alot of other relationships then just the bonanno family.

Don't know where you heard half of this, but it's not entirely accurate. No one ever said Rizzuto & Massino weren't on good terms. Like I said, prior to Sciascia being killed, Montreal was kicking up to NY, but it began to become less and less of a tribute. After Sciascia dies, the envelopes stop coming, period. Both Vitale & Massino testimony supports this fact as they both stated such. With Vitale going as far to say the last time he personally seen a kick up from Montreal was '98 or '99.


Vito Rizzuto never met Vinny Ocean, and Vito was never caught on a wire discussing him or any other Decavalcante Family member. And not ever about helping them. That also isn't true. What actually happened, was Sal Vitale brought that deal forward to Vito Rizzuto in one of his trips to Montreal in '92. Palermo knew that at that time, Bonanno still exerted control over Montreal. Because of this, he solicited Vitale's help, seeing as he was acting Bonanno underboss, in recruiting the Montreal guys in a scheme to import and export Persian rugs. US had an embargoe on Persian rugs, Canada didn't. All it simply was, using Vitale as a middleman, the DeCav's sent someone to NY, who was then sent to Montreal, to simply pick up the rugs, and bring them back. That was all. And Vito or any of the other members of his administration and close circle, ever personally transported the rugs themselves. Again, Vito Rizzuto and Vincent "Vinny Ocean" Palermo, never met.

And there isn't much to support the Rizzuto's dealing with any of the other families outside of the Bonanno's, the Gambino's, and very recently in a singular situation, the Lucchese's. Of course though, they loosely did business with all the families due to their position in the Pizza Connection.

Ya Sinatra I read that in that book 6 the family probaly 5 years ago I don't really remember it to good. I didn't no there a embargo on them rugs weird. I agree with basically everything else once they killed vitos best friend George he ended his relationship with massino. They tried to play him like a sucker no respect. I guess George only had 1 soldier in NYC baldo amato of the pizza trial fame. Sal vitale met him in a dinner and gave him the bogus story to that the family didn't OK the hit.

It was really just New York arrogance, and aloofness, if they were serious about maintaining Montreal, they shoulda had Their own man up there like Vito had his in NewYork..
What do you guys think about that Gambino arrest with Lupoi? Are the Bonnanos fronting for the Gambinos, with the Gambinos securing the loads, the Bonnanos taking the heat for both the Gambinos and Canada?
What I've been wondering for the longest is, was that bust a continuation of the Old Bridge operation, where they were basically trying to "reactivate" the Sicilian mob, or did they go where the money goes and do business with the Calabrians?
Like the calabrians had direct ties to Colombia, but they have been usurped by the Mexicans. So how does this all work exactly?
Is it that the Mexicans are trying to move into New York, but can't make inroads with the Dominicans there? Soooo, they form a relationship with the mob to ship Coke outta the country. Here is what I don't get, they have been getting Coke from South America and sending it to Spain, West Africa, that big port in Calabria, what ever one is friendly at the moment,so why do they now need to ship it through New York?
It could be that whatever route they were using has been compromised, so they need a reliable partner in the states to facilitate the deal. This is why I keep asking the question, did Cali replace Rizzuto in the great scheme of Italian American Narcotics trafficking?
He has the pedigree, the stature, the front (his food companies) connections, family ties, ect... Where does the Queens/Calabrian/Genovese thing fit in?
It's like they are making New York, Thier Montreal, a transshipment point for their Coke going out the country....
Any thought on any of this?

Thanks for the posts Dix and Sinatra, it's been a very interesting conversation. Is there any place I can read Massino's testimony?

There might have been a little of it in the first Rizzuto book but I have yet to see anything showing the whole testimony though.

Yes I love threads like these. Me and Sinatra have disagreed before, but we always kept it clean and classy and I respect that. Like I told him in the other thread, I'm eating my words now and he was right about Leonardo Rizzuto running things. I would say at this point it's easily Leonardo running things with Stefano Sollecito as his underboss and his Father Rocco being in the consigliere role.

The Mexicans have greatly increased their presence in the Northeast in recent years, including New York. Colombians are still the main suppliers in New York City but Mexican and Dominican groups are bigger in the rest of the state. But the Mexicans are now the dominant traffickers as far north as Philadelphia and are the main suppliers of heroin in New Jersey. They've already started supplying Dominican groups in some cases. Both the Colombians and Mexicans still depend a lot on the Dominicans to middle the drugs. This is all according to the most recent NDTA and HIDTA reports. Incidentally, the Colombians simply relinquished control of most of the smuggling into and distribution within the US to the Mexicans, choosing to take the safer, more insulated role of manufacture and supply.

The Mexican cartels formed partnerships with the Ndrangheta because it knows the lay of the land in Europe and controls distribution routes. I'm not sure how much, relactively speaking, gets shipped through NY (seems like a big and unnecessary risk) unless NY is the destination. The recent Queens bust that alleged Genovese financing wasnt the first example. Back in 2008 some Genovese associates were also caught up in Operation Solare that targeted the Gulf Cartel and Ndrangheta. The 2014 bust of the Ndrangheta which you mentioned, and included associates of the Gambinos and Bonannos, was similar.

I'm not sure how much there really was to the whole "reactivating the Sicilian drug pipeline" of Old Bridge. That bust did result in both the American LCN and and Italian OC groups being mentioned in the 2009 NDTA but not much since then, including no mention at all in the 2015 report. The Gambinos are still involved in the drug trade as much or more than any other family but I don't think Cali taken Rizzuto's place in that respect.

luppinos/violis are same family by marriage. fall under the umbrella and control of Ontario clans.
musitanos had close relationship with verducci, which might explain their house being firebombed?
when u consider verducci represented the colluccio clan who are allegedly at war with the fiolomeni clans here in Toronto.
there is still a lot we don't know.

most of the articles out there always blame the Montreal Toronto angle, especially when calutti and verducci got killed. but both these hits could have been internal disputes, using the montreal angle to the plotters advantage. meaning it would automatically, seem like these hits were revenge from rizzutto.

if we are to believe rizzutto was as crafty and smart as they say he was. no way he would of ordered a hit on calutti in woodbridge 2min away from a cop station, no matter how vengeful he was at the time. it was said at the time that verducci was killed b/c he was trying to take over territory in Vaughan that montreal had controlled. its more likely verducci was trying to take over calutti's gambling territory after he was killed. reports are verducci was allegedly plotted against by the filomeni;s. which might make a good case that sam worked for the filomeni clans and two others. (demaria, commisso)
point being I would not read too much into the articles.

I think u are seeing chaos in the Toronto ranks as 2 of the big bosses are no longer on the streets: demaria in jail, abrruzze deported.

The reality of it is, it's all theories. You say you wouldn't put too much into articles, yet you're basing your theory as more correct, based on a report, the same thing you just said not to read too much into...I don't understand that.

Its been said Rizzuto wasn't the same man he was coming home as he was going away. He was driven by vengeance, not business and being methodical. Look at Ducarme Joseph, one of the last victims. His own people claimed he wasn't involved with Nicks murder, yet according to Adrian Humphrey's almost every Mafia soldier in Montreal did. Not only that but he was almost undoubtedly in collusion with Montagna as it was his soldiers picking up the extortion tabs for Montagna. Joseph was done in, in a way that wasn't common with Vito and his usual ways, he was murdered in broad daylight, much like Nick Jr. Was penetrated with machine gun fire and his lieutenant and store manager was also hit. It didn't fit the pattern of Vito Rizzuto & Montreal Mafiosi, yet, they're the prime suspect in his murder.


For what it's worth, I think Verduci's murder was the first shot in a friction between the Coluccio & Figliomeni clans. This theory is supported by wiretaps from Italy, and reports from Adrian Humphrey's. Things kicked up between those two clans only after Verduci was hit. Because of this, and the fact that Calautti is among the main suspects in the murder of Nicolo Rizzuto & Agostino [BadWord], I still believe Calautti was hit by Rizzuto loyalists.

Again, like I said, it's all theory.

UR RIGHT. MY POST WAS INFLUENCED FROM RECENT REPORTS. SHOULD HAVE EXPLAINED IT BETTER. ALL THEORIES IS CORRECT, WE CAN SPECULATE ALL WE WANT, BUT THE TRUTH IS WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE FACTS, UNLESS SOMEONE FIPPS.

It remains in the cell sidernese Jimmy De Maria, among the most influential boss overseas






Tue, 01/13/2015 - 11:15



interesting article from Italy

http://www.larivieraonline.com/resta-cella-il-sidernese-jimmy-de-maria-tra-i-boss-più-influenti-doltreoceano



He took part in the summit of the 'Ndrangheta, despite an obligation not to offenders. For this reason, the Court of Toronto decided that Vincent "Jimmy" De Maria remains in jail. Writes this morning Pasquale Violi on the newspaper of Calabria. De Maria was arrested in November of 2013 after breaking his probation. Sidernesi origins, considered a "top player" the Siderno Group, Jimmy is among the most respected and influential boss of Missisuaga, a Toronto area stronghold of the 'Ndrangheta from across the ocean. Along with Carmelo Bruzzese, who was also in custody in Canada, it is one of the people closest to Carmine Verduci, boss axis Locri-Toronto, was killed during an ambush in Woodbrige in April 2014.

https://nationalpost.com/news/teflo...aly-as-federal-court-overturns-irb-order

Teflon Don of Canada dodges deportation to Italy as federal court overturns IRB order

Interesting Jimmy was said to be one of the main rivals of Vito Rizzuto.

This guy is ridiculously low key. He has LE, tax authorities and everyone imaginable surveilling him, yet he is a big time boss.