I relatively new to learning about the mob and I was wondering about the size and power of each individual crew in a family.

From my understanding most crews range between 8-15, but mostly consist of only 10 guys. These are supposed to be the guys who run their neighborhood so to speak, but usually you have street gangs that have 20+ members so how do they overpower them?

I thought the answer to this question would be that they have associates, but what I have read is that most associates don't directly work for a soldier and carry out orders but are just guys that they work alongside and form partnerships with. It just seems strange that only 10 guys can control the crime in one area when so few in number.

I've never seen an estimate for the average size or range of a crew that was based on anything substantial. The number 10 may originate from "decina." Some crews may have that many, others more, others less.

Associates fit both descriptions - ones that work directly for a soldier or captain. Others that work with the mob at times in an ongoing capacity.

The gang thing is not as much of an issue as you might think. Different criminal circles in different areas with different rackets. Only occasional crossover.

And it's misleading to say a crew "controls crime" in a given area. It's not like every mugger, car thief, burglar, or con man is kicking back tribute. Sure, there are examples of a crew who has maintained tight control of the drug trade in certain neighborhoods. But the mob is, and has been for many years, more about business territory than just geographic territory. This union local belongs to one crew. This garbage company belongs to another. Etc.

Thanks for the response Ivy.

So black gangs that are mostly involved in the drug trade would they be paying tribute to the local crew as most wiseguys were involved in narcotics dealing themselves?

I remember hearing Sewlyn Raab talk about Sonny Black's crew on a documentary. He said that Sonny was in charge of a crew that had approximately 15 soldiers and 25 associates. This struck me as an incredibly small soldier to associate ratio. Am I naive to think that when I first read that the average associate to soldier ratio was 10 to 1, and therefore there would be 100 associates to one crew?

Crew of 10 is more than enough- it's not quantity but quality

Consider Roy Demeo only had a few guys around him yet look how much money and fear that crew generated

When Gotti Jr. was made capo, he was assigned Borrielo & Charles carneg... And had a few boyhood friends around him

Black gangs, unless they borrowed money to buy the drugs, most likely won't be seeing any wise guys, probably Dominicans, or Mexicans, maybe Colombians possibly, with different groups operating in different spheres of influence.
Also, if there are no Italians present, or crew based in the area, there is no reason to intersect...
Unless there is a business relationship like a Barnes -Madonna, black gangs arnnt paying tribute like that anymore, not like a street tax like in philly, they don't have the muscle for something like that, and because they don't contribute drug supply, they don't have the leverage like that either...

If the Philly family could implement a street tax on drug gangs surely the families up in NYC could do the same?

Not a chance, NY is way too big, it would be all they ever did. Certain areas possible, but the whole city? Case in point the Dominicans, have had Washington heights for forever, how would one go about taxing them?
Mexicans? Colombians? Albanians and Russians and African Americans?
Without the political leverage, and police on the take, there is no way to enforce it, not to mention the blood that has to flow, they don't need the violence and attention that would bring, the money wouldn't even be worth it I don't think....

Case in point Stevie Vento, now I'm not very well informed on philly, but this was a guy and his son that balked at the street tax, this is just one guy and his son, imagine ordering a New York blood set to pay you or else? I don't know... Any thoughts?

Blood sets only extend to about 10-15 members I always thought...

In fairness the mob did tax Nicky barnes, who probably about 30-50 members in his organization, blood and crip drug gangs could never reach that size.

The key word is "did". They wouldnt be able to pull that off today. That was a time when the mob had much more influence and could get away with leaving dead guys in a trunk.

The membership size for Crips/Bloods set varies by location and an average is around 20-30. On the low end 10-15 to 50-100+. I don't recall Nicky Barnes being taxed at all but did network with them. The Philly family didn't tax all the black crews and Crip/Blood are more of a criminal gang than a drug gang.

Welcome to the boards.

The 10 associates for every member is one you often see a lot but I don't know how much basis in fact it has. As I've said before, I take associate estimates with a grain of salt because, while a member is a member, definitions of an associate may vary. You could get several different estimates for the same family or crew depending on how loose your idea of an associate is. Its usually up to the FBI SEC in a given area. But for the record, 1:5 is the most common I've seen for the NY families. In New England and Philadelphia it's 1:2. The New Jersey family has a rather low ratio, about 1:1. Chicago 1:4 by the latest figures.

Like I said, there is little interaction between the mob and black gangs. There are examples but they're the exception that proves the rule. The mob is a white organization that generally operates in white areas. It's why it's become more and more a suburban phenomenon over the past few decades. If it is exacting tribute in an area, and we have seen this with the Gambinos in parts of Queens and the Luccheses in parts of Brooklyn in the past, it's from other white dealers dealing in white areas. When Scarfo had his street tax in Philadelphia, he was extorting white bookies, loansharks, and drug dealers.

Not taxed, like I mentioned previously, Barnes had a business relationship with Maddona from the Luchesse, and the GD in Chi were conservatively about 15000 members at their height, so drug gangs can get pretty big...
Listen to Ivey on this one, on both the question of associates and wise guys spheres of influence, he's mostly right...
Listen to Black fam too

Last post on this, one on the tax thing, I think a few days ago there was a thread about how the people of Sicily were standing up to paying protection, so as far a street tax the writing is on the wall with that one...
As far as the black gangs go, there have been instances where the mob did business where there was Intersecting interest, Bumpy and the genovese, Barnes and Luchesses, lots of interaction in the Detroit mob, I think Vito had the Bloods with him in Canada, Joe Gallo, it's not like it's Never happened but generally, they don't intersect much noses it's the drug business...

Knew I forgot one, this shows if there is a dollar to be made, they will do business with anyone...
http://www.newsweek.com/mafia-bloods-alliance-94451

Anyone know where to find transcripts of the taped conversations between Edwin Spears and Joseph Perna/Michael Cetta? I'm sure it would be some entertaining reading.

I thought this was an interesting quote from the article (from the former chief of the gang unit in the New Jersey U.S. Attorney's office):

"Street gangs operate in a much more open and notorious fashion, which leads to a lot more street gang members getting arrested in law enforcement sweeps than members of organized crime … Street gangs, even more than mobsters, tend to cooperate with law enforcement when they're arrested, so if you have deals with a street gang member you really run the risk that he'll get arrested and flip on you."

That's a very true quote, the discipline isn't there, it's why these gangs are so unstable, not just here but look at the Camorra in Italy (to me these are just really organized urban drug gangs, there are exceptions of course, Licciardi, Casalesi, Nuvolettas etc)

But there is a difference between a gangbanging gang, and a drug gang.
A well organized drug gang is pretty similar to a mafia crew, that's why if they come into contact with one, and it's reasonably organized, business will be done..
It's the difference in Chi in the 90s and now, they gangbanged harder in the 90s, but it was a business too, now it's all gangbanging...
But, I mean it's all relative, take two high level, high volume drug dealing cartel connected brothers, the Flenorys (black) the Flores brothers (Mexican), the Flores brothers are the ones that cooperated, Ironic right?

The Vario crew had 14 made men and 40 associates,thomas gambino and dibernardo was a capos but controlled the garbage and porn industry and don't needed soldiers.

I think that in this days,even decina mean mininum 10 wiseguy a capo could have also 5 men dipends by the family and the bussinesses.

The drugs rings need more men,while the white collar needs few men.

Crews can start off small. Then they hire people to work for them. So you can have over 100 people working for you. Associates can come and go I mean really go because they are expendable. Then you recruit new guys.

A lot of associates are thieves. Then they can venture into other things. Like loaning money but they still are thieves. Then they might get into running illegal gambling games. Then they get introduced into deal drugs.

You can hire kids to do strong arm work or steal for you. Things they were already doing for no money. Now someone shows them how to make a lot more money doing the same things.

Blue-Collar crews that gross the most revenue will have the largest crews.

I think they actually were online at one point. When the arrests first happened back in 2007, there was an extensive document released by the government that went in depth into the investigation. It had a lot of recorded conversations about the Luccheses gambling operations. I think the Perna/Spears conversations were in there as well. Used to be on the RD forum. Not sure if it's still available.