People have attempted this talking point before with me and it doesn't work.

First, it shows a blatant misunderstanding of Christianity and how the Atonement of Christ works. Second, going by that logic, we may as well do away with all courts, jails, prisons, and everything else to do with the judicial system and corrections. Applying your misunderstanding of Christianity would mean that criminals are automatically forgiven on the spot. Of course that's not what Christ or the Atonement is about. Mercy cannot rob justice. And Christ's sacrifice makes no intercession for the unrepentant.



Nobody did in that case. But they are part of a criminal organization that does engage in murder, as well as a host of other crimes. And you know what's the bread and butter of these mob families? Gambling. You either comprehend the concept of RICO or you dont.



You can't say "deterrence doesn't work" when there's never been sufficient teeth in our laws to actually deter criminals. It's like the idiots who say it's pointless to fight the war on drugs when we really haven't fought it in the right way.

Furthermore, prisoners doing hard labor wouldn't be "slaves." Upon conviction, and until they serve their sentence, certain rights are suspended. And them doing hard labor is more just than them sitting around, bullshitting, watching TV, playing cards, and lifting weights.

Finally, yes crime will always be with us in a fallen world. But a real justice system would do much to minimize it as much as possible.



Very original and we'll thought out response.



Listen, I realize you've always been a little butt hurt because I don't buy into the fantasy some perpetuate about the Detroit mob on these forums. But that doesn't give you license to rewrite history. I don't think you were even on the RD forum at that time and the reason I was given the boot had nothing to do with anything here. And, for the record, several long time posters besides myself were also banned for little or no reason. So you're not going to get any mileage on that here.

People have attempted this talking point before with me and it doesn't work.

First, it shows a blatant misunderstanding of Christianity and how the Atonement of Christ works. Second, going by that logic, we may as well do away with all courts, jails, prisons, and everything else to do with the judicial system and corrections. Applying your misunderstanding of Christianity would mean that criminals are automatically forgiven on the spot. Of course that's not what Christ or the Atonement is about. Mercy cannot rob justice. And Christ's sacrifice makes no intercession for the unrepentant.



Nobody did in that case. But they are part of a criminal organization that does engage in murder, as well as a host of other crimes. And you know what's the bread and butter of these mob families? Gambling. You either comprehend the concept of RICO or you dont.



You can't say "deterrence doesn't work" when there's never been sufficient teeth in our laws to actually deter criminals. It's like the idiots who say it's pointless to fight the war on drugs when we really haven't fought it in the right way.

Furthermore, prisoners doing hard labor wouldn't be "slaves." Upon conviction, and until they serve their sentence, certain rights are suspended. And them doing hard labor is more just than them sitting around, bullshitting, watching TV, playing cards, and lifting weights.

Finally, yes crime will always be with us in a fallen world. But a real justice system would do much to minimize it as much as possible.



Very original and we'll thought out response.



Listen, I realize you've always been a little butt hurt because I don't buy into the fantasy some perpetuate about the Detroit mob on these forums. But that doesn't give you license to rewrite history. I don't think you were even on the RD forum at that time and the reason I was given the boot had nothing to do with anything here. And, for the record, several long time posters besides myself were also banned for little or no reason. So you're not going to get any mileage on that here.

I have been on RD for a while and I certainly was there during your constant feuds with everyone...in particular the last one with Pic that got you the boot...

And you go through the same thing here from what I see...exactly what is going on here...

Hardly anyone ever gets banned on the RD...you really have to push buttons to get banned...and you did.

Anyway, its useless to go back and forth with you as history has proven so good day sir.

Ivy Idk bout all the other rd shit and I think you make good points and clearly know more bout mob stuff than I do but I totally disagree with your statements on punishing these guyys so harshly for gambling offenses. You have to take into account the disproportion of the actual crime they were convicted of and the sentence imposed. With no violence theres no way these guys should be doing more than 2 years just for gambling.

And your argument that we know theyre part of a criminal organization is immaterial to the case. If the state wanted to charge them with racketeering offenses then fine but sinxe I don't believe they were u can only go off of the facts and the charges in the present case. Trust me as a lawyer this is how the systen works. As much as you or anyone else believes that the book should be thrown at a bunch of mobbed up bookies the reality is our system does not have the resources to do this to every offender and I dont believe that they should. The cj system has to go after all criminals of course but they have to pay more attention and drop the hammer on people that are really damaging society. And im sorry but john and joey pernas bookmaking operations are not it

Its illegal because bookies dont pay taxes, betters place bets without laying down money and that leads to shylocking. Ever wonder what shylocks do when a guy owes 50 large and cant pay ? Contrary to what many think, its not just written off.
sports betting should be legal and controlled, no doubt. The reason why bookies make money is because they are taking a big risk most poeple arent willing to take: they are risking their freedom. If no one went to jail, everyone would be a bookie on the side.

The heck are you talking about? Several long time posters got the axe from the RD board. It's why the BH board was created in the first place.

And what happened on the RD is not even remotely similar to anything going on here. Maybe you're just saying that in hopes I'll be banned here, and then you could post all the BS about Detroit you want without anyone calling you on it, but there's no comparison.

And for the record, I and others who called out Pic on his BS were vindicated long term. Me and at least one other long time poster were banned because we wouldn't eat out of Pic's hand like his groupies. We didn't take everything he said as gospel. Eventually the powers that be on the RD caved to the pressure and banned both of us. Of course, later it was determined by everyone that Pic was Lenehan and not some made guy posting away on message board.

Pic and his flunkies were mostly the only ones I argued with. And now time and the truth has chopped Pic down to size and his groupies have mostly scattered to the wind. Meanwhile you have real Mensa members like Dan and louieb left over there.

Ivy Idk bout all the other rd shit and I think you make good points and clearly know more bout mob stuff than I do but I totally disagree with your statements on punishing these guyys so harshly for gambling offenses. You have to take into account the disproportion of the actual crime they were convicted of and the sentence imposed. With no violence theres no way these guys should be doing more than 2 years just for gambling.

And your argument that we know theyre part of a criminal organization is immaterial to the case. If the state wanted to charge them with racketeering offenses then fine but sinxe I don't believe they were u can only go off of the facts and the charges in the present case. Trust me as a lawyer this is how the systen works. As much as you or anyone else believes that the book should be thrown at a bunch of mobbed up bookies the reality is our system does not have the resources to do this to every offender and I dont believe that they should. The cj system has to go after all criminals of course but they have to pay more attention and drop the hammer on people that are really damaging society. And im sorry but john and joey pernas bookmaking operations are not it

Actually there were a lot more things pointing to him not being Lenehan...so I dunno what u are talking about...

You must get your facts from the anti piccaso lenehan website lmao

Well, the fact that the FBI had dramatically downsized it's resources against the mob should make you feel better. Also, let's not forget that, historically, many mob cases that have led to other charges, including more serious crimes, have begun as gambling investigations.

Keep in mind that most of these guys double their base salaries through Overtime, its sickening....And people wonder why Jersey is so expensive and heavily taxed!!

A lot of holier than thou shit from a bunch of people who devote time out of everyday to talk about OC and have a secret obsession with the life. This is why I rarely comment on stuff. Everyone is in the know and fights over who's right or wrong but most haven't been around the life in no way , shape , form , or fashion. Give me a break with this shit.

Even former supporters of Pics are now convinced he's Lenehan. But, for the sake of argument, even if he's not, he's still a liar and a fraud. And it was HIS ego, as well as the pathetic need for certain posters to believe they really had an inside source in the mob, that led to so many problems.

But again, that's old news at this point and has nothing to do with this thread on this board. You simply brought it up because you got brave when you saw others jumping on me and you felt it was a good time to try and get your own licks in. I've encountered your kind over and over in the nearly 10 years I've been on these forums. You carry grudges for eternity and you get your courage from being in a pack. Time to crawl back under your rock.

IVYS ISSUE,IS THE SAME ISSUE HE HAS WITH MOST OF THE BULLSHIT POSTERS ON THESE FORUMS,which is they refuse to listen to common sense and the fbi,which is the top agency in terms of experience fighting the mob over the last 50 years. No matter how many times the FBI TELLLS HIM THAT DETROIT IS ACTIVE. He refuses to admit it. It's as if he thinks JAck giacolone all of a sudden at the age of 60 went legitmaent. There's actual indictments of Detroit people over the last few years , it just doesn't make the papers. He doesn't realize that while the castellano era godfathers went away in the mid 80s the Detroit people went away in the mid 90s and that was it. In 1996 the Detroit family was said to include 30 made members and 200-300 associates. They also said they made a number of people in the mid 1990s and early 2000s. This was confirmed by the FBI.Did all these people go legit???? They all found God at once??? No one has gone to jail really since then or ever except for short amounts of time...............does that make sense to you???? It's not me saying it's the FBI?????