@ Moe
You seriously should consider being a standup comic, lol you keep this board from taking itself too seriously, I thanks you my friend!!!!


I mean Coporate Thuggery, legit as a means to be "better" at being crooked, if that makes any damn sense lol......

I also took a different read from the informant;



He's wrong, but not how guys might think is my guess. What the informant probably sees, is Tramaunti assuming control of the narcotics trafficking, and with so much overlap between the families, it's probably hard for someone who is not high level to make distinctions,



This being the sixties, to low level guy or outside observer, it might be hard to distinguish Traumauntis family allegiance, because on the surface, he deals as much with Bonnano traffickers as Luchesee ones, any thoughts?

I'm not sure the Naples comparison is apples to apples. The Italian crime groups, like the Camorra, have a lot more manpower, in a much smaller country, where the political and business sectors are more easily corrupted, and law enforcement isn't as effective.

One thing OC experts have noted about the NY mob is that it usually showed a surprising amount of restraint when it came to controlling certain legitimate industries. Even when it might have controlled more, it was typically content to only maintain control of certain parts.

It was the government that the mob lost ground to when it came to the garment center. Any which way they did things, the eventual racketeering, extortion, and restraint of trade charges would have come sooner or later.

The criminal climate in NY from the thirties to the 70s, was probably comparable to Italy as far as police ineffectiveness......




It's just you look at the Gambino trucking interest, it started crooked, today it's legit. In That Luciano book ( I know it has innaccuracies) he says they made like every petticoat in America. It stands to reason to me, with influence of that level, there should be some equivalent decendant mob company, like the largest retailer in NY, I don't know, it just seems like SOMEONE shoulda had a Burlington or something by now lol...

They used to control sweatshops, like the Naples gangs, with immigration, they woulda had a steady supply of workers on the cheap, only difference is the Naples sweatshop workers, are master craftsman, capable of making the highest quality stuff from shoes to dresses, from silk to leather, they handle it all.

But I'm not talking just cloths, it's like they had the docks right? So like, all the companies that service the docks, container repair companies, stuff like that, they should have, maybe not all but a good chunk of it.




Example of what I mean Ivey, in Takedown, they had the garbage for 50 years, they were so arrogant they sent actual wise guys to deal with politicians, instead of having front men for their front men, who act on behalf on corporations, owned by more corporations, with layers of lawyers in between.
Take a Myer Lansky, it starts as like craps games, to numbers and gambling, to carpet joints, to actual real casinos, to Swiss banking chicanery, but there was always a progression..... Any thoughts? (Sorry if I derailed the thread...)

I think what you're describing is more Godfather trilogy - NY rackets to Las Vegas casinos to Immobiliare - than reality.

Actually, Godfather 3 might have the most true facts of all the movies....
Like you can't tell me Don Luchesse isn't Michele Sindona ( he controlled like 500 corporations), that archbishop is the guy from Chicago....
Hell, even the helicopter hit, I always thought it ludicrous, until I read about someone renting one and flying over Arcadis house, lol, plus all the shit in Mexico, plus reading about some South American cartels and how they move....
But I'm off track here, lol




You misread what I'm saying, an example; In Franzeses book, he talked about how he formed a shipping container repair company, but he just ran a scam with it. I didn't understand why he didn't just use his connects to STEER business towards his company for a kickback or something, it seems like a much more stable way of going about it. Another, in Gravanos book, he talked of how a lot of mob guys used the unions to get work, then did shoddy work. He said it was shortsighted, I agree. Use this influence to really take over shit, not just nickel n dime it to death. That's what Carlo wanted I think. Another example, Ettore Zappi, used Gambino trucking clout, to get an exclusive contract with I think a department store, then used the trucking clout to get another contract to be An exclusive provider of mattresses, like you just keep building, that's what I mean.....

Also Ivey, I feel like you look a little too much at NY, look at some of those Italian families... THEY LOOK LIKE GODFATHER 3 lol, so how's it not reality or close to it? the Rizzutos?
They want from a crew, to a powerhouse family in like what 25- 30 years?
My point is the mob had 50 years unmolested, I think guys like Gambino, Costello, Catena ( another great example with balleys and midway games) Luciano, even guys like Profaci with the oil, I honestly think they would be disappointed today.

Here is a quote from my favorite mob book that sums up what I think it should look like.....



“Casalesi have distributed their goods throughout the region. Just the real estate assets seized by the Naples DDA in the last few years amount to 750 million euros. The lists are frightening. In the Spartacus trial alone, 199 buildings, 52 pieces of property, 14 companies, 12 automobiles, and 3 boats were confiscated. Over the years, according to a 1996 trial, Schiavone and his trusted men have seen the seizure of assets worth 230 million euros: companies, villas, lands, buildings, and powerful automobiles, including the Jaguar in which Sandokan was found at the time of his first arrest. Confiscations that would have destroyed any company, losses that would have ruined any businessman, economic blows that would have capsized any firm. Anyone but the Casalesi cartel. "Every time I read about the seizure of property, every time I see the lists of assets the DDA has confiscated from the bosses, I feel depressed and exhausted; everywhere I turn, everything seems to be theirs. Everything. Land, buffalos, farms, quarries, garages, dairies, hotels, and restaurants. A sort of Camorra omnipotence. I can’t see anything that doesn’t belong to them”

THATS WHAT I MEAN, what I think Carlo and those types were going for , any thoughts? (This is getting kinda interesting, feel free to chime in guys...)
Excerpt From: Roberto Saviano & Virginia Jewiss. “Gomorrah.” Picador, 2007. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/rlf9w.l

Excerpt From: Roberto Saviano & Virginia Jewiss. “Gomorrah.” Picador, 2007. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/rlf9w.l

I think the genovese are the family that top to bottom takes this method seriously, the gambinos and luchesses are like 50-50 businessmen and goons it seems like lol...

I know there is tremendous cultural difference, but to me the Italian mob, coulda been almost like the Yakuza, a corporate mob, with huge gambling and loan interest, basically accepted by society...

I agree with with you when it comes to the crime groups in Italy. I'm not sure if the same was ever possible in the US though. There are a lot of differences, as I listed above.

Also, if you look at the news about the Yakuza in recent years, its membership has shrunk considerably and it no longer enjoys open acceptance in Japanese society like it once did.

You're right about the Genovese. They've continually been said to be the most sophisticated family, maintaining more involvement in labor unions and legitimate business than the other families.

Bootlegging is still a business. Many states you cant get alcohol on Sundays and whole counties are still dry up to this day. The college I went to was in a dry county, weekend parties and frat house were dripping with money.

At any point many guys could have started there own companies and went completely legit and made millions. They couuld have even paid "dues" to keep the families off their backs. But the majority of them were Gotti types, being gangsters just so they could have that made up honor and power. This wasn't the 1920.

And that's where they went wrong. Had they recognized the bigger picture and just left Paul to do what he was doing, then the Gambinos would probably be reaping the benefits of that right now. If he wasn't convicted, that is.

paul caused his own problems and his own death he has no one to blame but himself choosing biletti as his chosen acting boss was suicidal

he became out of touch with the streets and thats what matters i find it funny that some people have this idea that the westside was/is some sort of white collar experts the majority of the family like the other five familys are street guys the westside just had more white collar guys

These guys are gangsters half of them have no idea how to run there own companies they come up from the street half of these guys are dumb


paul should have never backed the westside aswell when he had that capo in the bronx killed. He let gotti rise no sympathy for paul none he became greedy and out of touch and like i said choosing biletti caused his own death

WRONG.

The singular cause of Pauls death was the Gotti's crew involvement in trafficking H and the Ruggerio tapes proving this.
This would've been Ange, Gene etc's death warrant, probably John's too (or at the least his demotion and/or shelving).

That's why Paul was hit.

Gotti HAD to hit Paul. Or he was next.

That's the reason Paul was killed.
Not Bilotti. Not 'removed from the streets'. Not the upstate capo hit by the Westside.
Gotti's crew moving H is why Paul was hit.

I agree Sonny and further, Dellacroce protected Gotti and his crew. When Dellacroce died, Gotti lost his protection. Big Paul was indicted in the Mafia Commission case he wanted to hear Ruggiero's tapes. Gotti no longer had protection. And the final straw came when Paul did not go to Delacrcoe's funeral. Gotti had to take out Paul because like Sonny said, he and his crew would have been hidtory. People underestimate Paul but make no mistake about it, he would have wacked those guys in a heartbeat.

Good point Bean.

I think people refer to the Genovese family as a whole. As a whole, they are more sophisticated. Not just more careful, more secretive, and better organized, but more sophisticated in terms of being more involved in labor unions and legitimate business compared to the other families. Of course, that doesn't mean every last member is a savvy, white collar millionaire. But again, speaking as a whole, Genovese members are also said to be wealthier than the other families.




I would argue how others had come to perceive Castellano, like with his greed, aloofness, giving up his capo to the Genovese, etc played a part in certain guys like Gravano, DeCicco and others joining Gotti in the plot. Gravano said as much in his book.

Sure. That gave Gotti's move a perceived justification.

But Paul was hit, because his crew got caught moving H. And whether Paul allowed the Westside, or he was perceived to be aloof or whatever is at the end of the day irrelanvent. Gotti hit Paul because either he did or he'd go. That's why Paul was hit. Not because of Bilotti or anything else. Because John had no choice.

If Billoti was never upped, Paul reached out to the streets, the Westisde were never given the green light etc etc Paul would've still gone. Because it was John or Paul.

If Paul hadn't have been so removed from the streets. Gotti never would have got the backing he needed from the other captains. Armone/Gallo, DeCicco, Gravano (who was not yet even a capo. He needed backing from these other guys, and the weight their crews carried, to bring every thing together once the shooting was over.
No way a single crew takes out the boss then stares down the rest of the family as well as the other 4 family's.
Paul has been creating the divide for years prior with his greed and holier than thou attitude. Gotti just was able to capitalise on it when the stars aligned.
IMO Castellano was a very shrewd and switched on operator and years before may have even been a formidable force on the street but in the end age and good living caught up with him. When you cant see the angles no more its time to get out cause the streets ALWAYS watching.
In the words of Carlito Brigante “you run out of steam. You can’t sprint all the way. You gotta stop sometime. You can’t buck it forever. It catches up to you. It gets you. You don’t get reformed, you just run out of wind.”

^ That's the point I was making. I tend not to get into the hypothetical discussions but one wonders if Gotti is able to make such a move without Gravano, DeCicco, Armone and others backing him. It wasn't just about taking out Paul but surviving after the fact. And one wonders if those guys would have backed Gotti if they weren't disillusioned with Paul.

it was not one reasons pauls death. John might have hit him anyway but he caused alot of his own problems guys like gravano decicco armone they only joined because of pauls actions


1) he gave up his own capo to the wetside it does not matter if it was the right thing the gambino family were outraged

2) choosing tommy biletti as his acting boss and tommy gambino as his underboss made decicco the most important out of all the "fist" plan to kill paul

3) his drug ban was ridiciclous he was making millions from the zips in drug money and he was getting loads from roy demeo drugs deals dont tell me he did not know because he did his drug ban angered guys


4) he started setting up construction companies with the chin and the westside which angered gambinos like sammy gravano as they were cut of the deals and made nothing pauls greed

5) he was removed from the streets he knew there was tension in the family after neil died he just ignored and stated he was taking gotti down he was naivve he should have had gotti killed problem was by this stage no one would have killed him in the gambino family paul would have had to go to the westside

He stayed in that big mansion he gave the street guys little respect and at the end of the day the street guys are what matters


6) he was not a real boss lacked balls neil would belittle him infront of over mobsters how do you think that looks these are gangsters they can see weakness from a mile away

7) he did not help himself not going to neil and the comments he made about neil after he died saying neil was a rat was ridicilous it just angered guys like gotti even more

8) he kept changing his mind before neil died he said he was going to make a ruling panel for when he went to prison john gotti tommy gambino and tommy biletti but as soon as neil died he said he was going to break up the gotti crew this caused instability in the family

people forget that gottis crew was one of the most powerful in the family

I'm not arguing that Bilotti, removal from the blue collars, hit by the Westside etc all didn't assist in bringing in the support of Gravano, DeCicero etc. Or help to sell the move after the fact.

I'm saying that's not why John hit Paul.
That's all smoke n mirrors used to recruit support and sell the move, but that's not the reason Paul was hit.
Gotta hit Paul because his crew got caught moving H and he and his crew were fucked.

But I've said my piece and that's not the question of the thread so I'm done on this issue.



+1
Good quote.

Yeah but there are the portion of them that could be CEO's of legit companies, and have been and are...(just dont ask where the money came from to start them)

Not all are just a bunch of street thug morons, especially the Genovese.

It takes a lot to run restaurants and other businesses and turn a profit. The ones that arent being used to launder anyway.

Look at Parkside.