Neil in my opinion was the most ignorant mobster to believe in all that LCN crap he preached... In fact IF LCN which he loved to preach was real, then in theory he should have demanded to be boss seeing "underboss" is next in line

Yes old Carlo wanted Paul to be boss, but u can't just make rules as u go along. And Neil for whatever reasons (just got out of jail) or didn't have the stomach to fight a war, decided to respect Carlo's wishes & accept a lot of the crews that would kick up to him directly

Had he been more ambitious, and kicked off a war, which crews were willing to go to bat for either guy?

Paul side

Nino
Tommy Gambino (did he even have a crew at this stage?)
Frankie DeCicco
Toddo
Pat Conte?
Scotto ?
Marino
Jimmy Brown
Joe Gallo

Neil
Fatico/Gotti
Fat Andy Ruggiano?
Joe Piney
Ralph Mosca?

Frankie Loc?

I think everyone would have realised Neil (even on Paul's side) was the better boss because Neil wasn't as greedy as Paul who demanded a huge cut. And Neil understood the street guy better

I agree, Neil should've been boss, would've been a lot better for the unity of the family. They should've given Paul free reign to direct the white collar wing of the family and expand their legitimate portfolio but he would've been under Neil in this arrangement.

Don Carlo was feared and respected so Neil understood that no one would fight for him (except Gotti) and that the other families would dont accept him as boss if he would whack Castellano. The only rules in LCN are obey the boss and do what the boss order dot

If Neil was suck a stickler for the "rules," why did he refuse to turn over Quack-Quack's drug dealing tapes to Castellano when he asked for them?

Exactly.

Maybe Neil was afraid of being implicated by association?

Him being master of the blue collar wing meant that the drug profits from the Bergin crew stopped at his doorstep and went no further.

U are both confused

Neil NEVER refused to hand over the tapes, in fact quite the opposite

He was actually begging Fat Angie to hand them over to keep the peace. Even Gotti played along to appease Neil

And again u are looking too far into this, as if Neil would give a damn about taking junk money from the Gotti crew

We all know he would just claim he didn't know where it was coming from and let's face it, that's the norm

He was on his deathbed for crying out loud.... What was Paul gonna do to him??!! Haha

Neil was hoping that by handing over the tapes because the boss is the boss is the boss in order to save Angie's life (not realising the info contained on the tapes actually would get Angie whacked even sooner) and Angie knew this. Neil didn't

You make some valid points Tony, but didn't Neil also mention going to war on the same tape when he said the boss is the boss? His obedience wasn't absolute or unconditional, no disrespect intended to him.

No, he didn't imply going "to war" in a literal sense like "come on. Johnny and Angie, let's get our battle clothes ready" Nothing like that!

Rather, he was begging Angie to hand the tapes over and "I can't stop the guy always bringing it up unless I tell the guy why don't u go fuk yourself. (Then he stutters/ hesitates) -and says then we know what we gotta do we go to war BUT is that what u really want, a lot of guys can get hurt. I could get hurt, he (Gotti) can get hurt"

So he's actually cautioning against war.

Exactly..& JOHNNY BOY waited ever so patiently,thereby also abiding by the rules..his wheels were turning up in his head no doubt.

it made no difference to ruggerio what paul wanted, angelo knew he would get clipped if paul had those tapes, and maybe gotti too, wasn't that one of the reasons that gotti had paul clipped?

And in the end, Paul got the tapes anyway and didn't so much as say "boo" to Ruggiero.

I wonder if Neil knew anything about what John and Ange were planning. They were talking to Decicco, Gravano, and even members of other families at that point. Neil wasn't an idiot.

Neil had no clue, his bedroom was bugged. No where in the tapes did it suggest he had any clue of what was unfolding

As for Paul not touching Angie, u do realise Paulie was in serious trouble and possibly going away for life. Having a war was the last thing on his mind, it would have also bought too much heat during trial

The Gotti crew would have got dealt with after not necessarily with violence. We will never know. Either way, Paul would use the tapes to disband that crew and
break Gotti down to soldier

I never thought castellano had the tapes. I didn't think anyone turned them over to him, or if he did get them, then reason for his execution by the gotti crew. also didn't the plot against castellano really begin after neils death?

Which rule says the underboss automatically becomes boss?

[quote=Binnie_Coll] I never thought castellano had the tapes. I didn't think anyone turned them over to him, or if he did get them, then reason for his execution by the gotti crew. also didn't the plot against castellano really begin after neils death? [/quote

Who cares what you think? History is concrete. It's a fact castellano got the transcripts of that tape. That is a fact in history no matter your opinion.

Yeh he supposedly got them through his lawyer

The underboss has historically always been the logical successor in event a boss dies or goes jail/ obviously that will depend on various factors. Rules are just that, rules

I never knew that either.

I don't doubt your knowledge Tony. I think what people are thinking is that the Underboss is appointed and not elected, like the other two, Boss and Counselor. So an outsider would naturally assume that if a Boss lost power, the next Boss would be elected [by the Captains], IE no inherited succession.

Neil wouldn't have been a good boss. yes he was a well respected street guy BUT he was constantly in trouble in the law.In fact he had just gotten out of prison at the time carlo died. Like it or nor Big Paul was probably the right choice because he stayed low under the radar and he knew white collar crimes which were the future of la cosa nostra at the time. I'm not saying Paul was a great boss but I definetly understand why carlo chose him.

He was dying you really cant make a case and from what i read he told his nephew angelo turn over the tapes your not abouve cosa nostra or some shit and john sr said yes. It really is a head scratcher john a capo grom queens got the jump on carlo gambinos brother in law big paul. So well played but i dont think they would have killed john. Paul was going to jail so was billotti.

Paul was kinda dumb he seen what happened to angelo bruno that what makes me think he was in on that. A boss getting killed paul must have had a wink nod with the genovese but off the record to probaly the other families. And to go on a thread like galante paul deff knew and said yes. Chin in hks crazy act but at his social club had a pulse in the street probaly why they never tried him.

a lot of guys would've went to prison, pauls tapes at the house would have hurt plenty capo's

I'm surprised Tommy Gambino, Bilotti and Joe Butch was never dragged into it. They were caught on the tapes at Paul's few times

Maybe nothing significant as far as I remember but u know the Feds, they'd make a case out of anything

No I wouldn't say he was always in trouble with the law. He actually had a solid/ long career on the streets given his reputation and status

Apart from being on trial with Anthony Plate which he beat, he did abit of time for tax evasion/ getting caught losing money at a casino

Remember there was an article claiming he was a rat and Paul was the one who bought it up. Article claimed that for a mobster- Neil did very little time etc and Gotti supposedly went nuts

Not surprised though- think yrs later Gotti was caught on tape calling Carlo a rat Fuk for not opening the books sooner. But still had praise for Neil saying "he would call a mother fuker a motherfuker to his face"

Odd the feds really never used them, my opinion the feds had someone high up ,maybe more than one guy deep cover and once the maim targets paul tommy were dead .the passed on pinching guys.. commission photo's were deadly.. i feel strongly they had a few rats at that point

Capos Joe butch and jimmy brown and Joseph zingaria were indicted cause of the tapes in the late 80s. They beat the charges that was the so called "gambino Heriarchy Case"
Wiseguy Anthony vittta beat that case too I believe.


http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/10/nyregion/gotti-tapes-detail-role-as-mob-boss.html

Really, i do not remember that..good research

these were the bergen tapes , was pauls house used also?

The main crux of that case was the Paul tapes
Jimmy brown was like Frankie loc. he didn't say shit on the tapes

interesting