I've heard that Chicago is a little different than the other LCN families in terms of making guys and other traditions. I've heard being made doesn't carry as much weight as it does in NY, and that they've had high ranking associates of non italian ancestry. Can someone elaborate on how the outfit is different in LCN customs and traditions?

Chicago was different because from the Capone era to the Aiuppa regime in the 70s there wasn't an official making ceremony like in the other families,for example there was no oath,no flaming santinos ecc it's enought that the capo say that you're a made man.

Second:the outfit let to non italian associates to climb the ranks and be respected as they were capos examples are Jake "Greasy Thumb" Guzik a political “greaser for the outfit;Murray Humphreys,chief political and labor racketeer and Ken Eto top gambling man.

Third: the outfit take seriously the ban on the drugs and preferred to be the top dog in Las Vegas where controlled the most big and
lucrative casinos (who run the casinos was Frank Rosenthal ajew while the enforcer was tony spilotro).

Although few in number, the outfit still has many associates and prefer to keep the ranks close.

Maybe that stood for the Outfit only but STILL they had recognized "made" members into Cosa Nostra who went through Mafia ceremonies.



The most prominent non-Italian criminal who really climbed the ranks of the Outfit and was connected to Cosa Nostra, was Gus Alex.



I've told you one million times to stop spreading that bullshit.

Ok Toodoped,Im wrong so make some examples from the capone era to today of drug traffickers.

I said until Aiuppa regime the Outfit had no making ceremonies but it is logical that with Aiuppa they "made" with the official ceremony.

They had ceremonies, they just weren't as elaborate. It just depended on who sponsored who.

Outfit has had a bunch of mid-level guys busted for drugs. Their activity was no doubt approved or financed by higher-ups but because the Outfit has such a dearth of cooperators nobody was ever charged.

Just a few drug cases off the top of my head:

Rocky Infelise in the early seventies for being involved in heroin trafficking with black street gangs. Turk Torello was also suspected of financing drug deals around this time.

Victor Plescia arrested in 1990 for running a drug trafficking ring. He was a member of the Melrose Park crew who reported to Al Tornabene and Anthony Zizzo. Frank Bonavolante was another M.P. crew member involved in this bust.

Chicago Heights members (and brothers) Clement and Chris Messino, nephews of Willie Messino, were arrested in 1995 on charges of running a cocaine ring throughout the 1980's.

Sam Sarcinelli, another Heights crew member was imprisoned in the late eighties for drug trafficking.

Additionally, there is information that several small and mid- level dealers were murdered to prevent them from cooperating with authorities, ostensibly to disguise the involvement of the upper echelon of the Outfit in the funding of these rings.

There is also information that drug dealers were extorted or forced to pay a street tax to operate in certain areas. This essentially makes the Outfit complicit in whatever drug activity is being taxed.

With all this said, the Outfit wasn't as involved as the New York families in drugs and were much more strict concerning the involvement of their members in drug trafficking. However, we'll probably never know the true extent of their involvement in the drug trade.

Snakes, there was also the Sicilian guy who was out in Elmwood I believe who was deported back to Sicily for slanging coke in the early 90s. Can't remember his name though.

Snakes dont forget Americo DiPietto and Carl Fiorito. Both guys worked under Giancana, sold large quantities of herion and spent time in jail. These two fellas had a quite long drug dealing history of almost two decades and you can find many government documents regarding the close connections and financing between the dealers and the top boss. Right now im writing a long article regarding the narcotics business and the Chicago Outfit and you just wont believe it what i have found. There were quite strong connections between Chicago, New York and Tampa regarding the drug business.

I'd have to look in the Johnson book, but one of his entries discusses a major Outfit guy who was a conduit for heroin between Chicago and the NY Families. He ended up whacked out, Johnson claims by NY, but I find it hard to believe NY moved against anyone in Chicago without full approval from Ricca and the bosses here.

Forgot about some guys in Marco D'Amico's crew getting caught with cocaine in one of their wire rooms. D'Amico was never charged for it but I'd assume they were doing it with his approval.

That also reminds me that Joe DiFronzo took over that pot farm when the owner got behind on juice payments.

Additionally, Tony Spilotro was shaking down drug dealers during his time in Vegas and his crew was was strongly suspected to be dealing some themselves.

Believe Rocky Infelise was also hindered from moving up in the 60s cause he was big into junk.

Thats right, he and Turk were arrested somewhere around the mid or late 1950's with something like $100,000 worth of narcotics.

Also Spilotro and the Indian controlled a drug trafficking crew in Arizona.

Rocco DeGrazia was also one quite interesting example. He was a long time capo of the Melrose Park area, who was involved in narcotics trafficking, especially raw opium and heroin, and on top of that, he was a heavy user. He was caught numerous times with pipes and all kinds of stuff on him. And all this happened during the Accardo era, which according to some, he was against drugs. During the same time period Chuck Nicoletti also served time for dealing in narcotics and after that became one of the best hitters for the organization.

I'm looking forward to your piece on the Outfit & Chicago's Drug Trade. Mickey Cobras seem to had ties with the Outfit in heroin trafficking.

Never heard that about DeGrazia. My guess is he had enough juice that it didn't matter.

Yeah it could it be. And also i remember that one of his brothers, who was a member of his crew, was also an addict. Many old timers from the Capone mob were known for doing drugs, guys such as Willie Heeney, Jack McGurn, Sam Hunt etc.

@BlackFamily thanks man and ill let you know if i need some help with the street gangs connections.

I'm looking forward to it as well

Also in regards to your pm;

I just recently saw it, my bad for not getting back to you. The guy I know, I know more about HIM and what he's into, we've only had brief discussions about " The Old Days"... But if I can add anything or give any help, I'll pm you...


@ BlackFam

There was a recent article in the paper about the GDs vs MCs war you referred to in the, fuck, what thread was it? Marcelo, no New Orleans?
(Back to the Outfit)

@Toodoped

That's going to be a great read. In the Strength of the Wolf, they break down the Chicago/Mafia drug trade all the way back to like the 40s n 50s, says every Alderman, top cops got a piece. Judges paid off, it's no wonder no one went to jail. Contrast with say 2/3s of the Luchesses taking narcotics pinches to n the 50s-60s....

Al Capone was doing coke in the 20s snorting it

Toodoped, I also read that Virginia Hill, who was fluent in Spanish, was directing heroin trafficking out of Mexico for Chicago. Do you know more about that?

In Ellroy ' s American Tabloid, outfit men buy the heroin from mexican drug lord that grow the opium in Mexico.
Who know if really happened ?

I've read about her being in fact a Chicago mob girl and that she used to hung around with many representatives from different countries so there's a possibility that she was used as a spy or even maybe in some cases as negotiator in some business deals such as narcotics. Besides being a lady, Hill was a very shrewd and smart individual.

The other individual which was fluent in Spanish was Richard Cain aka Scalzetti. He directed narcotics and gambling operations around Central and South America for Giancana, together with Mugsy Tortoriello and Hyman Larner.

Wasn't Virginia Hill a "Bagman" in Chicago to move the money around?

Not sure about Hill but it is believed that Judith Campbell Exner was rumored to have shuttled suitcases of cash between Chicago (Giancana) and the White House (Kennedy).

She was also rumored to be romantically involved with Giancana, Sinatra, JFK & RFK. I guess we'll never know for sure...

seems like chicago still makes only a few people

seems like newyork still makes people basically for the sake of having numbers

@Hollander

FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE, LOL


I've not only read that she operated a narcotics network out of Mexico, but I read in the same book that the REAL reason Bugsy was hit, was because he tried to muscle into this West Coast based narcotic operation. And that it MIGHT have actually been CIA shooters who hit him. In the book it said law enforcement always had described his murder as "very un gangster-like" , kinda crazy....

My 2 pennies. Read that book by made chicago guys kid frank breeze he said him and his brother did the burning saint card in the hand in 1980. It made him uneasy. For ya kid to tape you in a federal prison is so bad. Wow. Just wow. Is that a first in any prison.

If they don't make guys, how do people know on the street who they can and can't touch? How do you have a family with no made guys? Talking about pre recent changes where people are claiming oaths are taken

Chicago wasnt really a "family" in its early days, there was an established "family" already in Chicago prior to Capone and his "getting made" by Masseria during rhe Castellamarese War. Regardless , The Outfit was a powerful group, partly because of its willingness to include many different ethnicities, and allow some of those non-Italians, non-made guys to rise up in the organization. Personally I think they may had already surpassed the established Chicago family in strength prior to Masseria coming along, and like I said before there are still Italians and always was, who were in the group and never "made" or participated in induction ceremonies. The fact that they didnt really seem to be barred from anything and didnt follow the typical Cosa Nostra stigmas and rules, I think its aided them now, and even then. The simple reputation of the group would maybe be enough to make affiliated guys "untouchable".

@ johhnydoves

It always amuses me, the opinions on NY and Chicago, and the function of a made guy.

The Gennas were Sicilian. They were criminals. But the way they were organized, is a LOT like say, what you might find in Canada today, or Naples, maybe Colombia or Mexico, even Dominican, I think, more so than even Sicily. They controlled a territory, ( which, funny enough, eventually became Cabrini Green lol..) but focused on selling a product, not so much wholesale extortion. I don't think the Gennas had to " Make" themselves? To be respected by...... Each other? Blood relatives? Lol, how ridiculous does that sound?


ONE OF MY BASIC RULES- Power syndicate equals wholesale extortion, territorial control. Control of customers, like gambling, or even specific rackets, like say garbage, construction, in a certain area.
This requires soldiers IN THE TERRITORY, when you have a concentration of gangsters in one place you need RULES!!! PARAMETERS!!! Hence, this setup NEEDS made guys. Or more specificly, a mechanism for regulating disagreements amongst themselves, so as to keep business flowing.


ENTERPRISE SYNDICATE equals control of a COMMODITY, like liquor, Cigarettes, counterfeit cloths, drugs. It's not hard to see that with these businesses, territory is an IMPEDIMENT to success. You don't want to be tied to a specific PLACE, if you are moving a product. These organizations need KEY people, in KEY PLACES, probably multiple places or KEY PEOPLE with special connections.
This was ALWAYS LUCIANO. Always had special connects with the dope suppliers, whether through Rothstein, or the Chinese, later the Corsicans. ALWAYS had special relationships with European Distillaries, legit medical corporations for both medicinal liquor and opiates. This is why BUSINESS was always more important to Luciano. Luciano wasn't made, and then got access to special connections. He HAD special connections, AND THATS WHY HE WAS MADE!! HE, his crew brought wholesale bribery to the NY mob, not the other way around. They benefitted from an association WITH HIM, but I don't think people see it that way.




And this is a fluid thing, it's not set in stone. A strong enterprise can lead to territorial control, territorial control can morph into a strong enterprise.


The Outfit, while having some characteristics of a power syndicate, to me, was really always an Enterprise syndicate, ( Actually I would love to hear Todopeed, Snakes opinion on this, I think I might make a new thread..) first with liquor, then the race wire and gambling and juke machines and narcotics. I consider the race wire an enterprise more akin to a product, because they were selling information, more so than extorting individual guys in a specific area, just taking a cut.

Look at the Calabrese in NY. They control a commodity. Because of this, I guarantee you they don't care about being made, don't NEED to be made to operate, don't need a huge crew to coordinate their activities, and don't care about the local NY rackets.

When I look at organizations, I always use these guidelines. When I look at individuals, I use Machiavellis tenants to try to gauge their relative power.

@ Sinatra

You are right, the Outfit pretty much, was the strongest group. What people don't seem to get, is they were the strongest largely BECAUSE IT WASNT STRICKLY SICILIAN. Same for Luciano's click. People don't get that Luciano and Capone were powerful, capable as fuck, BEFORE THEY BECAME MAFIOSI. THEY ENHANCHED THE MAFIA. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Capone didn't become made and then became a crime boss. He BECAME A MADE GUY BECAUSE HE WAS A CRIME BOSS ALREADY. absorbing him into Cosa Nostra enhanced the mafia. Same for Luciano.
The Sicilian thing actually would have greatly crippled both these guys if they had to adhere to that.

@johnnydoves


Chicago established an absence of competition in a different way than NY.

Chicago is like what NY might have looked like if Maranzano woulda ultimately won, and all the gangs of NY were consolidated into one. Better yet, it's what NY might have looked like eventually if Luciano hadn't gone to jail, he might have lead a more integrated underworld. Instead of a real war of attrition, the NY guys cut deals, formed a criminal cartel, in Chicago there WAS an attempt at a cartel, but the guys wouldn't play by the rules, so there was war until one side absolutely won.


I tried explaining to Iveyleague lots of times that the density of NY, makes it the most, I don't wanna say recession proof, but it's not vulnerable to any ONE industry failing. ( Not like Detroit with the auto industry, or Cleveland and Pittsburgh with the steel..) Shit Wall Street meltdowns can't slow down NY. The money NEVER STOPS THERE. So there is always business to siphon from, the territory is rich, so a POWER SYNDICATE WILL ALWAYS FLOURISH THERE. The fact that there are five gangs too strong to overpower one another means THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO KEEP MAKING GUYS IN NY., to keep the status quo.
( it's an interesting thing to me, in cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, to me, the mafia existed to take advantage of opportunities created by the presence of a strong middle class, based of well paying union and maybe manufacturing jobs. I mean discretionary income to gamble, whatever. When these jobs went, the REASON for the mafias existence there, went. This is something that will probably never affect NY, there will always be an economic climate conducive to criminal activity. Lots of people don't seem to see it this way. In a city like Chicago, or New Orleans I think, it's the climate of corruption that enables the criminals to flourish. Like the mafia exist to take advantage of the CLIMATE OF CORRUPTION, it's much more like what you see in Sicily. Where the actual politicians are another species of gangster. You talking about like, LaGuardia tried to throw the mob out, Anton Cermak tried to REPLACE THEM WITH HIS OWN GANG!!!!



If a made guy died in another city, his cut of the action enriches the remaining guys. So unless say, you wanted to get a protege or family member made, or unless the new guy is bringing in a NEW REVENUE STREAM, the established guys would have NO incentive to initiate a new guy and split the pie into smaller pieces. This is just business, an Oil boss will never INVEST in the new guy talking about wind power. He'll lobby the government to shut the guy down, to protect his entrenched interest. You saw this inChicago with Colosimo being reluctant to enter bootlegging, or In the Godfather movie, where Vito is reluctant to enter the new frontier of drugs, over what he knows, gambling and unions. (Power syndicate operations vs enterprise syndicate operations, it was a war of criminal ideologies a little bit....)

See in a city like Chicago, or the other families around the country, there is one organization. So there is no incentive to KEEP making guys. It would be different if made guys from other cities could come into your territory, you might have seen families outside NY reach 100 members or more, to compete with the larger numbers from bigger families. But that splits the pie into MORE pieces. How else you explain the size of the smaller families, or the Commission acknowledging some of these TINY families. (Think San Jose) This is why they got old and died out, people act like they lack the criminal acumen, that's not what it is.. The ironic thing to me is the most capable guys in the Outfit, WERNT ITALIAN. They were irreplaceable when it came time to replace em. 50 young guys with their fingers pricked couldn't replace Humphreys, Larner, Alex, these type of guys.
Plus after the FBI got involved, long term, there was less and less percentage in joining the mafia.
Now NY, is different. If a made guy dies, ANOTHER made guy, either from another family, or within the same family can move into that racket. So they kinda HAVE to keep the numbers static, this is why Anastasia selling memberships was such a big deal.

When I see the question, " How do they have a family with no made guys?", and Johhny don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think a lot of people understand the CONCEPT of a made guy and what it means, how it works.

It's, like you actually believe you HAVE to be an Italian to make a book. Or loan money, make a drug connect, basically to be a criminal, which to me, is just a miscalculation.

Look at it this way, in the period from 1957- what? 1975 I think, no one, save for few special exceptions ( I'm sure someone on here knows a couple names...) was made in NY. Now, let me ask you, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE GANGSTERS IN THE STREET DIDNT KNOW WHO TO RESPECT? Who was for real, and who wasn't? And do you REALLY believe this respect stems simply from getting your finger pricked? It's like when Gravano talked about Gambinos nephew, him being Gambinos nephew didn't guarantee him respect. Any respect the nephew got was really respect for CARLO. See how the guy got kidnapped....

Think to Sammys book, where he describes Shorty Spero. He says even though he wasn't made, it was a technicalilty. Not only was he respected like a made guy, but he was respected like a Capo. Similar situations I think for a lot of guys during that time period, like Gotti running the Bergin.
People don't seem to get that the Outfit had a TON of criminals who were the real fuckin deal, and WERNT Italian. It's come up on the boards before, why does the Italian DeSimone get hit and not Jimmy Burke? Cause Burke was just a better fuckin criminal.

I'm rambling now, Any thoughts fellas??

That's really helpful! Any other insight would be appreciated as well.