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Re: about small families
[Re: MeyerLansky]
#982702
12/14/19 12:23 AM
12/14/19 12:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 53
TheLittleMan
Button
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Button
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 53
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There are bosses that are at least in my mind share numerous characteristics and are easy to group together. These being Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante, Angelo Bruno, Russell Bufalino, Simone DeCavalcante, Raymond Patriarca, John LaRocca, Nicholas Civella, Anthony Giordano and Frank Balistrieri. Of course there are differences between these guys but what they had in common I think is far greater: heads of small families for lengthy, yet relatively peaceful, periods of time. This is in contrast to the New York families who often had a violent change of leadership and periods of violence in the same era. So while the intrigue and violence are interesting in the New York families, I think it's just as interesting that these other guys managed to have long runs controlling their own, albeit small, empires.
Same mafia, but also different, ya know?
Perhaps that's what makes these families interesting?
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Re: about small families
[Re: TheLittleMan]
#982704
12/14/19 12:42 AM
12/14/19 12:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,441
MeyerLansky
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,441
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There are bosses that are at least in my mind share numerous characteristics and are easy to group together. These being Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante, Angelo Bruno, Russell Bufalino, Simone DeCavalcante, Raymond Patriarca, John LaRocca, Nicholas Civella, Anthony Giordano and Frank Balistrieri. Of course there are differences between these guys but what they had in common I think is far greater: heads of small families for lengthy, yet relatively peaceful, periods of time. This is in contrast to the New York families who often had a violent change of leadership and periods of violence in the same era. So while the intrigue and violence are interesting in the New York families, I think it's just as interesting that these other guys managed to have long runs controlling their own, albeit small, empires.
Same mafia, but also different, ya know?
Perhaps that's what makes these families interesting? yeah 100% also what do you think about the quality over quantity thing ?
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Re: about small families
[Re: MeyerLansky]
#982714
12/14/19 04:12 AM
12/14/19 04:12 AM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,526
LuanKuci
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,526
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Simply put it was easier to keep the grip on a smaller area/city with almost no competition than having to knock shoulders with other 4 crime families in one of the world’s largest cities. Shaking down “cow towns†along the rust belt and the Midwest wasn’t that much of a task for them.
Not to mention that the whole small town America vibe made local mafiosi the top dogs right off the bat. Smaller/rural centers don’t get the same scrutiny larger cities and metropolitan areas get. Public officials are less likely to get on the feds’ radar, thus they’re easier to grease. Omertà is more stable when literally everyone can trace your family tree and everybody knows everyone.
In NYC (or other large cities such as Chicago) they had/have to navigate through a much more crowded underworld and constantly changing politics and demographics.
The ethnic and cultural canvas of places like Youngstown and Upstate NY, eastern PA, etc... haven’t changed that much in the last 50 years.
Ironically, what brought down many of these smaller families was their involvement in larger, nation-wide rackets with bigger coastal families (Unions, Vegas,...). If they’d have kept it low key and local, chances were they’d still be around today. All this plus the fact that the bosses run these families as their own private clubs: very little room was given to other up-and-coming guys so you had no new blood coming up. Small families were run like close-knit kingdoms while larger ones were run like proper governments.
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Re: about small families
[Re: LuanKuci]
#982715
12/14/19 04:29 AM
12/14/19 04:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,441
MeyerLansky
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,441
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Simply put it was easier to keep the grip on a smaller area/city with almost no competition than having to knock shoulders with other 4 crime families in one of the world’s largest cities. Shaking down “cow towns†along the rust belt and the Midwest wasn’t that much of a task for them.
Not to mention that the whole small town America vibe made local mafiosi the top dogs right off the bat. Smaller/rural centers don’t get the same scrutiny larger cities and metropolitan areas get. Public officials are less likely to get on the feds’ radar, thus they’re easier to grease. Omertà is more stable when literally everyone can trace your family tree and everybody knows everyone.
In NYC (or other large cities such as Chicago) they had/have to navigate through a much more crowded underworld and constantly changing politics and demographics.
The ethnic and cultural canvas of places like Youngstown and Upstate NY, eastern PA, etc... haven’t changed that much in the last 50 years.
Ironically, what brought down many of these smaller families was their involvement in larger, nation-wide rackets with bigger coastal families (Unions, Vegas,...). If they’d have kept it low key and local, chances were they’d still be around today. All this plus the fact that the bosses run these families as their own private clubs: very little room was given to other up-and-coming guys so you had no new blood coming up. Small families were run like close-knit kingdoms while larger ones were run like proper governments. true ! thanks !
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Re: about small families
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#982741
12/14/19 01:41 PM
12/14/19 01:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 384 Providence, RI
The_Marble_Guy
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 384
Providence, RI
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At some point even after the books was re-opened many bosses prefer to dont made new guys. After the war with Greene the Cleveland boss had the permission of Tony Salerno to made even 10 members in one ceremony but he didnt. In some cases because yes there are few people or the mobsters sons dont follow their father in the mob but even because prefer to have their trusted men. So in the early 1990s some of them (Tampa,Milwaukee,st luois,bufalinos ecc) was dead. I love reading and learning about the smaller families. But I think part of their demise, for example, was large in part to what happened with guys like Scalish, they stopped making guys into the family. I think the same is holding true with New England IMO. Because Providence is all but gone. Theres alot of opinion on that but what seems to be clear is that during the last 20 years they havent been rebuilding the ranks in Prov. Boston is a different argument. The smaller families were great, but flashes in the pan.
Last edited by The_Marble_Guy; 12/14/19 01:43 PM.
" If you're going to be bad, be good at it "
Jerry Tillinghast
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Re: about small families
[Re: The_Marble_Guy]
#982745
12/14/19 02:03 PM
12/14/19 02:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499 naples,italy
furio_from_naples
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499
naples,italy
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At some point even after the books was re-opened many bosses prefer to dont made new guys. After the war with Greene the Cleveland boss had the permission of Tony Salerno to made even 10 members in one ceremony but he didnt. In some cases because yes there are few people or the mobsters sons dont follow their father in the mob but even because prefer to have their trusted men. So in the early 1990s some of them (Tampa,Milwaukee,st luois,bufalinos ecc) was dead. I love reading and learning about the smaller families. But I think part of their demise, for example, was large in part to what happened with guys like Scalish, they stopped making guys into the family. I think the same is holding true with New England IMO. Because Providence is all but gone. Theres alot of opinion on that but what seems to be clear is that during the last 20 years they havent been rebuilding the ranks in Prov. Boston is a different argument. The smaller families were great, but flashes in the pan. I think that in patriarcas after ray jr all the bosses come from Boston and that is the reason why Providence is almost done.
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Re: about small families
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#982780
12/14/19 09:49 PM
12/14/19 09:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 95
Galassi70
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Button
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 95
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At some point even after the books was re-opened many bosses prefer to dont made new guys. After the war with Greene the Cleveland boss had the permission of Tony Salerno to made even 10 members in one ceremony but he didnt. In some cases because yes there are few people or the mobsters sons dont follow their father in the mob but even because prefer to have their trusted men. So in the early 1990s some of them (Tampa,Milwaukee,st luois,bufalinos ecc) was dead. I think Licavoli made a handful in 1976 with permission From the Genovese Tony Liberatore John Calandra Allie Calabrese. Tommy Sinito. Im.sure Eugene Ciasullo and Butchie Cisternino. Were approached but declined Maybe Phil Christopher was considered too.
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Re: about small families
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#982840
12/15/19 03:05 PM
12/15/19 03:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 384 Providence, RI
The_Marble_Guy
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 384
Providence, RI
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Yes Boston has had the recent string of bosses. But if the tables were turned I think Matty G would have a lot more guys around Prov. Because I think he holds more weight with guys outside of New England than the Dinunzios.
" If you're going to be bad, be good at it "
Jerry Tillinghast
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Re: about small families
[Re: LuanKuci]
#982874
12/16/19 01:51 AM
12/16/19 01:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 217 NEPA and now Fla
Jshov31
Retired Capo
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Retired Capo
Made Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 217
NEPA and now Fla
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Simply put it was easier to keep the grip on a smaller area/city with almost no competition than having to knock shoulders with other 4 crime families in one of the world’s largest cities. Shaking down “cow towns†along the rust belt and the Midwest wasn’t that much of a task for them.
Not to mention that the whole small town America vibe made local mafiosi the top dogs right off the bat. Smaller/rural centers don’t get the same scrutiny larger cities and metropolitan areas get. Public officials are less likely to get on the feds’ radar, thus they’re easier to grease. Omertà is more stable when literally everyone can trace your family tree and everybody knows everyone.
In NYC (or other large cities such as Chicago) they had/have to navigate through a much more crowded underworld and constantly changing politics and demographics.
The ethnic and cultural canvas of places like Youngstown and Upstate NY, eastern PA, etc... haven’t changed that much in the last 50 years.
Ironically, what brought down many of these smaller families was their involvement in larger, nation-wide rackets with bigger coastal families (Unions, Vegas,...). If they’d have kept it low key and local, chances were they’d still be around today. All this plus the fact that the bosses run these families as their own private clubs: very little room was given to other up-and-coming guys so you had no new blood coming up. Small families were run like close-knit kingdoms while larger ones were run like proper governments. I’ve never been to western Pa or some of the other places you’re referring to but you couldn’t be more wrong when it comes to northeast pa. 50 years ago it was one of the wealthiest areas on the east coast with incredible economic growth and was 80-90% white. When my father was in high school there was 5 blacks in his graduating class in 1980. Shit, even when I graduated in 1999 there was only 10-12. Subsidized housing in that area was practically non-existent until probably 75-77. Fast forward to now and my 12 year old is 1 of 2 white kids in her class of 15 or so. My 14yr sticks out like a sore thumb in her team picture for basketball because it’s her and 1 biracial girl. Wilkes barre, Scranton, Pittston, Hazleton and many other towns all the way through upstate New York to damn near Canada are like this now. The Poconos was one of the premier vacation places for wealthy New Yorkers and others to visit from 1950 thru 1980 or so. From the 80s until a few years ago when Denaples got Mt Airy(Bufalino made that happen from his grave, trust me) it was a slum filled with minorities from NYC, NJ and Philly using it as a crash pad to sell drugs all over NEPA. There was almost no violent crime in NEPA from 50-70, now the murder rate rivals all the big cities. As far as cultural, ethnic and economic change over the last 50 years goes NEPA couldn’t have changed more. That area is the complete opposite of what it was 50 years ago and it isn’t getting any better.
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Re: about small families
[Re: thebigfella]
#982875
12/16/19 05:51 AM
12/16/19 05:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499 naples,italy
furio_from_naples
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499
naples,italy
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This board thinks a family with 15-20 members with 2 crews is dead, I disagree. In a small family like that most people are related and you probably have associates that's respected the same as a made man. People called Philly dead in the early 2000's and ligambi and the guys was earning under the radar Philly is different and some mob experts said that its dead because the family was always at war from 1980 to 1999 and Ligambi rebuilt it. While in Pennsylvania crime state report the LaRocca family was listed 23 made men and Pittston about 20. Now the remaining made men continue to had rackets like the Iannelli son that was busted for gambling but with no boss and no hierarchy the family is in fact dead.
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Re: about small families
[Re: LuanKuci]
#982885
12/16/19 11:29 AM
12/16/19 11:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 498 Texas
TonyG
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 498
Texas
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Simply put it was easier to keep the grip on a smaller area/city with almost no competition than having to knock shoulders with other 4 crime families in one of the world’s largest cities. Shaking down “cow towns†along the rust belt and the Midwest wasn’t that much of a task for them.
Not to mention that the whole small town America vibe made local mafiosi the top dogs right off the bat. Smaller/rural centers don’t get the same scrutiny larger cities and metropolitan areas get. Public officials are less likely to get on the feds’ radar, thus they’re easier to grease. Omertà is more stable when literally everyone can trace your family tree and everybody knows everyone.
In NYC (or other large cities such as Chicago) they had/have to navigate through a much more crowded underworld and constantly changing politics and demographics.
The ethnic and cultural canvas of places like Youngstown and Upstate NY, eastern PA, etc... haven’t changed that much in the last 50 years.
Ironically, what brought down many of these smaller families was their involvement in larger, nation-wide rackets with bigger coastal families (Unions, Vegas,...). If they’d have kept it low key and local, chances were they’d still be around today. All this plus the fact that the bosses run these families as their own private clubs: very little room was given to other up-and-coming guys so you had no new blood coming up. Small families were run like close-knit kingdoms while larger ones were run like proper governments. Not every smaller city lacked OC competition. St. Louis, for example, had three distinct organized crime families, 2 of which were not LCN. Tony Giordano ran the St Louis LCN family but had to compete with Buster "Buster" Wortman (the East Side gang) and Jimmy "Horseshoe Jimmy" Michaels (the Syrian - Lebanese gang). Wortman's East Side gang was a largely non Italian crew supported by Chicago and Michael's crew was a long time local crew of multiple nationalities. They were able to keep the peace for many years, but disputes over union control ultimately brought an end to all 3 gangs.
Best way to catch the smart ones? Get an idiot working for them.
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Re: about small families
[Re: MeyerLansky]
#982891
12/16/19 03:37 PM
12/16/19 03:37 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,684 new jersey
thebigfella
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,684
new jersey
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Not to long ago, buffalo didn't have an hierarchy either, people said Detroit was also dead, I think theirs a conspiracy going on in some of these cities to hide thier local mafia
"McGurn likes you, so I make you. So you are now one of us, if you fuck up, we take it out on McGurn. He is your sponsor. Fuck up, it's his ass. You work in his crew, he is your capo."
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Re: about small families
[Re: MeyerLansky]
#982906
12/16/19 05:40 PM
12/16/19 05:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 17
TheAngel
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 17
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am i the only one who notice that most of the people love reading, watching anything that have to do with the smaller mob families ? let's take an example : the sopranos the real life trafficante family (their past of course) the real life philly mob (tons of news and articles about them! even til today !!! ) and also the rizzuto's i just wanted to point that out because that's really interesting... in the 40s till the -70s the small families outside on NY practically ruled the mob (trafficante, buffalo, philly, outfit, marcello) which basically means the quality is sometimes a lot better then quantity right ? The Outfit was/is not a small family. They are one of the biggest LCN juggernauts there ever was
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Re: about small families
[Re: MeyerLansky]
#982907
12/16/19 06:07 PM
12/16/19 06:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 931 Word Wide
MolochioInduced
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 931
Word Wide
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Maggidino was Commission member, maybe he should have an asterisk beside Buffalo, if they appear overly influential. Were any other smaller family ‘Dons’ Commission members, (ie. Trafficante or Marcello)?
In Sicily, women are more dangerous than the shotgun.
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Re: about small families
[Re: MeyerLansky]
#982909
12/16/19 06:32 PM
12/16/19 06:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 17
TheAngel
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 17
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Slightly OT, but Chicago is easily the most fascinating LCN family of all time. They’ve had ONE single lone made member flip & testify (Scarpelli never got his chance. It’s been rumoured that Jimmy Boy Cozzo was the infamous C1 informant, but never proven, and I’m not sure he was made). That is absolutely unfathomable. It’s incredible & difficult to wrap one’s head around. And this is CHICAGO we’re talking about here, murica’s only other mega-metro. This ain’t Boston, or St Louis, Buffalo, or whatever.
Heck, prior to Joseph Fosco’s ANP forum, not much was known in regards to the details of the Outfit’s inner workings. That forum really blew the lid off of many a topic & exposed the public to names that we’d never heard before. Lee Magnifichi, for example, one of the most powerful Outfit guys EVER, the one time #2 in the Elmwood Park Crew, and no one had really ever heard of him. The Outfit’s secrecy & ambiguity is astounding. You have to wonder just how they’ve managed to maintain it. I mean, ONE single made guy, in the entire history of the largest murican LCN family outside of NY!? The culture must truly be quite different there. We’ve gotten peaks into the current regime with the Panozzo Crew & Carparelli busts, but they were mere glimpses into what is still the most impenetrable LCN family of them all.
I’ve heard Sol DeLaurentis is really reorganizing things as the #1 now.
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Re: about small families
[Re: TheAngel]
#982941
12/17/19 12:30 AM
12/17/19 12:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,441
MeyerLansky
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,441
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Slightly OT, but Chicago is easily the most fascinating LCN family of all time. They’ve had ONE single lone made member flip & testify (Scarpelli never got his chance. It’s been rumoured that Jimmy Boy Cozzo was the infamous C1 informant, but never proven, and I’m not sure he was made). That is absolutely unfathomable. It’s incredible & difficult to wrap one’s head around. And this is CHICAGO we’re talking about here, murica’s only other mega-metro. This ain’t Boston, or St Louis, Buffalo, or whatever.
Heck, prior to Joseph Fosco’s ANP forum, not much was known in regards to the details of the Outfit’s inner workings. That forum really blew the lid off of many a topic & exposed the public to names that we’d never heard before. Lee Magnifichi, for example, one of the most powerful Outfit guys EVER, the one time #2 in the Elmwood Park Crew, and no one had really ever heard of him. The Outfit’s secrecy & ambiguity is astounding. You have to wonder just how they’ve managed to maintain it. I mean, ONE single made guy, in the entire history of the largest murican LCN family outside of NY!? The culture must truly be quite different there. We’ve gotten peaks into the current regime with the Panozzo Crew & Carparelli busts, but they were mere glimpses into what is still the most impenetrable LCN family of them all.
I’ve heard Sol DeLaurentis is really reorganizing things as the #1 now. yeah the outfit are one the most fascinating families no doubt...
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Re: about small families
[Re: TheAngel]
#983007
12/18/19 01:16 PM
12/18/19 01:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499 naples,italy
furio_from_naples
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499
naples,italy
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am i the only one who notice that most of the people love reading, watching anything that have to do with the smaller mob families ? let's take an example : the sopranos the real life trafficante family (their past of course) the real life philly mob (tons of news and articles about them! even til today !!! ) and also the rizzuto's i just wanted to point that out because that's really interesting... in the 40s till the -70s the small families outside on NY practically ruled the mob (trafficante, buffalo, philly, outfit, marcello) which basically means the quality is sometimes a lot better then quantity right ? The Outfit was/is not a small family. They are one of the biggest LCN juggernauts there ever was Slightly OT, but Chicago is easily the most fascinating LCN family of all time. They’ve had ONE single lone made member flip & testify (Scarpelli never got his chance. It’s been rumoured that Jimmy Boy Cozzo was the infamous C1 informant, but never proven, and I’m not sure he was made). That is absolutely unfathomable. It’s incredible & difficult to wrap one’s head around. And this is CHICAGO we’re talking about here, murica’s only other mega-metro. This ain’t Boston, or St Louis, Buffalo, or whatever.
Heck, prior to Joseph Fosco’s ANP forum, not much was known in regards to the details of the Outfit’s inner workings. That forum really blew the lid off of many a topic & exposed the public to names that we’d never heard before. Lee Magnifichi, for example, one of the most powerful Outfit guys EVER, the one time #2 in the Elmwood Park Crew, and no one had really ever heard of him. The Outfit’s secrecy & ambiguity is astounding. You have to wonder just how they’ve managed to maintain it. I mean, ONE single made guy, in the entire history of the largest murican LCN family outside of NY!? The culture must truly be quite different there. We’ve gotten peaks into the current regime with the Panozzo Crew & Carparelli busts, but they were mere glimpses into what is still the most impenetrable LCN family of them all.
I’ve heard Sol DeLaurentis is really reorganizing things as the #1 now. Yes but the Outfit had 30-40 made men and even you said that the Outfit made at the same level the italians with the non-italians at the end is a small family,and also Detroit family had only 1 rats. ![[Linked Image]](http://cosanostracharts.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/chicago-outfit-chart-20181.jpg)
Last edited by furio_from_naples; 12/18/19 01:19 PM.
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Re: about small families
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#983069
12/19/19 02:04 PM
12/19/19 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 817
Friend_of_Henry
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 817
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I always thinked if the "NY put a freeze on the induction on the small families" is true. I mean if in a small family like pittsburgh simple inducted new member even without NY permission instead of let that the family die? After the commission trial there was no more a national commission and NY was far away. Considering your vast knowledge of Pittsburgh, who was their last made member?
"Never walk in a room that you don't know how to get out of"- Henry Zottola
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