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If Vito had died?
#983386
12/25/19 04:15 PM
12/25/19 04:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
OP
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OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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After Vito was shot, Tom urged Sonny to make a deal with Solozzo. Here's the relevant dialog:
SONNY: Well, Tom -- you're consiglieri, now what do we do if the old man dies, God forbid. TOM: If we lose the old man we lose our political contacts and half our strength. The other New York Families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long -- destructive war. This is almost 1946 -- -- nobody wants bloodshed anymore. If your father dies, (then) you make the deal, Sonny.
Do you think Sonny would have made the deal if Vito had died?
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: Turnbull]
#983610
12/29/19 10:36 AM
12/29/19 10:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385 Tampa, FL
waynethegame
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
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I think he would have, but constantly try to get Sollozzo afterward. Like he would constantly be operating behind the scenes to try and get revenge while pretending to have forgiven. Which would have caused more issues with the Five Families if he succeeded.
Wayne
"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger." Don Lucchesi
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: waynethegame]
#983664
12/29/19 11:03 PM
12/29/19 11:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
OP
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OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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I don't think Sonny would have made the deal for several reasons. First, as Oli noted, was his temperament. Second, he realized (per the novel) that when he shot his mouth off at the meeting, he exposed his greed and unintentionally encouraged Sol's attempt on Vito's life. Vito already knew that Tom and Sonny were for the drugs deal. I believe the reason he had Sonny, Tom, Fredo,Tess and Clem present at the meeting was because he wanted everyone to hear that his "no" was final--and wanted Sol to see that everyone heard that final "no" to keep him from trying an end-run around Vito. But, Sonny's outburst became (in Puzo's words), the c***k in the Don's armor." Sonny may have believed that if he'd said yes to the deal, he might have been perceived as benefiting from Vito's death by becoming Don and getting rich from drugs.
Tom's advice was rational, realistic, conciliatory, peaceable--the work of the lawyer that he was. But, he wasn't a Sicilian or a Mafioso. If he were, he would have seen that, if Sonny agreed to the drugs deal, he would have fatally weakened the Corleones by allowing an outsider--not even a made man in the US Mafia--get away with killing the great Vito Corleone. Sonny wouldn't have been the Don that Vito was. But, he was a feared figure in the Mob world, and (again as the novel points out), a superb street general. Fear counts for a lot in the Mob world--that's why Michael never gave anybody a pass, not even his own brother. If Sonny followed Tom's advice, he'd be giving Sol a pass that wouldn't escape notice by the other families, even if he eventually killed Sol.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: Turnbull]
#983671
12/30/19 02:00 AM
12/30/19 02:00 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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Sol's big mistake following on not dissimilar thread My take, for what it is worth! Sure thing Turnbull I also "don't think Sonny would have made the deal if Vito had died" especially considering Sonny's blunder, show of greed seemed the 'Go ahead' trigger for Vito's killing [we know different!] I believe Sollozzo and Barzini would have known “No way was he [Sonny] going to negotiate a deal with Sollozzo†with or without Sonny's greed after Vito's murder Sollozzo and Barzini were banking on Vito's death, then canvassing the Judges and Politicians who were in Vito's pocket - Vito dead and Barzini offering them a lot more money If my memory serves me right, Clemenza and Tessio were non-committal when Tom was telling Sonny to make the deal It undoubtedly would have looked bad for Sonny "if he'd said yes to the deal, he might have been perceived" that Sonny wanted Vito out, to take over
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#983685
12/30/19 12:31 PM
12/30/19 12:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
OP
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OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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It undoubtedly would have looked bad for Sonny "if he'd said yes to the deal, he might have been perceived" that Sonny wanted Vito out, to take over
From the novel (the scene where Vito discusses the upcoming Sol meeting with Sonny and Tom): The Don puffed on his cigar and said, "Santino, what do you think?" Hagen knew what Sonny would say. Sonny was chafing at being under the Don's thumb. He wanted a big operation of his own. Something like this would be perfect. My view is that if Tom knew Sonny was "chafing at being under the Don's thumb," then others would know it, too--Sonny being an unsubtle fellow. That's why, if he went for the deal if Vito died, he'd fall under suspicion--not only in the Family but outside, too.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: Turnbull]
#984144
01/05/20 02:23 AM
01/05/20 02:23 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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Hagen knew what Sonny would say. Sonny was chafing at being under the Don's thumb. He wanted a big operation of his own. Something like this would be perfect.
My view is that if Tom knew Sonny was "chafing at being under the Don's thumb," then others would know it, too--Sonny being an unsubtle fellow. That's why, if he went for the deal if Vito died, he'd fall under suspicion--not only in the Family but outside, too. I acknowledge this is from the novel...Then, surely Vito would have known it too yet Vito continued to keep Sonny “under the Don's thumb†Vito was instrumental, contributed, caused the misery of every one of his children, to their gloom and doom indeed
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: Trojan]
#984239
01/07/20 10:50 AM
01/07/20 10:50 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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Vito was all business Carmela is the one who kept the family together
He only acted on Sonny's infidelity when his blunder affected business Never mind his wife's feelings of hurt, him cheating on her True, but there's no indication that Carmela cared about Sonny's infidelity either. After all, she is the one who told Sonny "don't interfere" when he yelled at Carlo for telling Connie to shut up.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: If Vito had died?
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#984513
01/12/20 11:41 PM
01/12/20 11:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
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Vito was all business Carmela is the one who kept the family together
He only acted on Sonny's infidelity when his blunder affected business Never mind his wife's feelings of hurt, him cheating on her True, but there's no indication that Carmela cared about Sonny's infidelity either. After all, she is the one who told Sonny "don't interfere" when he yelled at Carlo for telling Connie to shut up. True Woltz but when Vito did, it was only when his blunder affected business not because of family values
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