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Do we ever see the other side?
#1009064
04/05/21 01:55 PM
04/05/21 01:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473
No. Virginia
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I've always thought that one of the confusing aspects of GF2 is that what we're seeing is a chess match, but only one side of it. We don't see Roth and Ola talking over what they're going to do next.
It's occurred to me that that seems a pretty consistent practice through the novel and the first two movies. We don't see Sollozzo and Tataglia planning, or Barzini plotting with either, or with Moe, Carlo, or Tessio. The book has a little narrative about McCluskey, but all he's considering is how to get maximum value for some betting slips he's seized.
I think that about the only place we see that kind activity is in the Ola-Fredo "wrong number" call. That view, of course, requires that Fredo be considered an antagonist, rather than a dupe. I've long wondered if that scene wasn't inserted just to establish that Ola (and by extension Roth) is definitely an antagonist.
Am I forgetting other stuff, or is it very consistent that you never get a window into what the other side is thinking?
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Do we ever see the other side?
[Re: olivant]
#1009088
04/06/21 02:47 AM
04/06/21 02:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697
AZ
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What Oli said. Plus: There's a good deal of violence in the Trilogy, but it's not overwhelming because it's spaced out among three long movies. Most of it comes as a surprise, making it more effective and dramatic. Those virtues would be diminished if, say, we saw Sol and Tatt plotting Vito's shooting, or Ola and Roth planning the Tahoe attack, etc...
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Do we ever see the other side?
[Re: mustachepete]
#1009258
04/09/21 12:27 AM
04/09/21 12:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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My take, for what it is worth! The “surprise†agony! and ecstasy!! indeed Sure thing Turnbull The suspense, subtlety “making it more effective and dramatic†Also it gets and keeps the audience engaged especially fanatics like us for 50 odd years! Otherwise what will we debate! Pete, It seems to me there are times we don't “get a window into what the [Corleones] is thinking†either Whilst we have our 'novice' theories, they are not quite conclusive until Checkmate! If my memory serves me right, among others - Godfather- why is Carlo being made Michael's right hand man just because Carlo grew up in Nevada?
- when Michael tells Tom “You're not a wartime Consiglieri Tom things may get rough with the move we're trying†what is the move they are trying?
- if the move is taking over the Hotel the Corleones bankrolled for Greene, Corleones giving up all their interests in the olive oil business and settling out in Nevada why may it get rough?
- when Michael told Vito in the Garden scene “I'll handle it. I told you I can handle it, I'll handle it†what was it Michael going to handle? until the Baptism, Greene and Carlo murders
- when Michael agreed to Tessio brokered meeting with Barzini at Vito's funeral - oh, no! Has Michael forgotten Vito's warning that “whoever comes to Michael with this Barzini meeting he's the traitor†until Cicci tells Tessio “Boss says he'll come in a separate car†screwing up all Tessio's arrangements!
- Carlo's involvement in Sonny's death until Michael's “You have to answer for Santino, Carloâ€
- Did we think Carlo had gotten away with it because Michael won't make his sister a widow until seeing Clemenza sitting in the back seat
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Re: Do we ever see the other side?
[Re: Trojan]
#1009346
04/09/21 11:29 PM
04/09/21 11:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697
AZ
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The answers to the Lana/Evita posts are found in II, in the scene when Michael visits Pentangeli. He tells Frankie, "My father taught me many things in this room [the home's office]...keep your friends close but your enemies closer." He also said he wanted Roth "relaxed...to think our deal is still good..." Those were Vito's teachings and they applied to Carlo. He was an enemy, but killing him right away would have let Vito's enemies, still at war with him, know that he discovered who was behind Carlo's treachery. Better to make them think he was weak, and focus on getting Michael back to the US safely--then Michael could deal with revenge at the right time ("Revenge is a dish best eaten cold," Vito said in the novel).
As for things getting "rough": Michael needed Tom as his legitimate front man in Nevada, not as a wartime consgliere (which Tom wasn't, anyway).
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Do we ever see the other side?
[Re: Turnbull]
#1009671
04/14/21 06:26 AM
04/14/21 06:26 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
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Re: Do we ever see the other side?
[Re: mustachepete]
#1010726
04/30/21 01:25 AM
04/30/21 01:25 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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Fredo must die?I read the thread, TB. Truly a fascinating deconstruction of means and motives that are not obviously in evidence. You have a genuine talent for circumstantial inference that is well-matched to the Godfather plot line. The Mario Puzo / FFC collaboration produced a plot of impressive sophistication and nuance, especially intriguing being the elements of the story that are merely implied - not stated outright - but are nevertheless essential to a complete understanding of the characters and the various dynamics in play, as you've accurately expounded. You've made a believer out of me. Clearly Fredo must have been into the conspiracy far deeper than meets the naked eye And the things Turnbull is teaching! and showing Coppola up!!
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Re: Do we ever see the other side?
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1010730
04/30/21 06:15 AM
04/30/21 06:15 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
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