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Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
#1014851
06/30/21 01:34 AM
06/30/21 01:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 70
Don_Alfonso
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It's often felt and stated that Rocco betrayed Michael in II, that he was the one who killed the would-be assassins. Why is this so assumed?
People seem to take Michael sending him on his suicide mission, and Rocco accepting it, as Michael offering Rocco a chance to atone, and Rocco accepting it is him accepting the offer of an "honorable death" ala Pentangelli - but could it not just be Michael didn't really care if Rocco came back alive or not; he was just a soldier, small potatoes, a pawn, a useful tool. He wasn't Al Neri. Rocco was a good soldier, and what he was going to do - say no? He saw Michael was ready to take out anyone he saw as potential enemy, lashing out publicly at his own "brother" Tom. So, you'll say no to that man?
It's stated in the film that Fredo had a crew. So, could it not have been one of "Fredo's people" who killed the assassins?
Perhaps Rocco failed in bringing the would-be assassins back alive, but Michael already figured they were dead before he ordered them to be be found alive. "If I'm right, they're dead already." So I don't think he sent Rocco on a suicide mission to atone for a failure of something he foresaw as being inevitable, anyway.
Last edited by Don_Alfonso; 06/30/21 01:35 AM.
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: Don_Alfonso]
#1014861
06/30/21 10:40 AM
06/30/21 10:40 AM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,525
Lou_Para
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No question that Fredo ,at the very least opened the drapes.
However,the one theory that I can't quite swallow is that Fredo killed the assassins on his own.
Could weak,stupid,and bumbling Fredo (remember the scene where Vito was shot,and he dropped his gun) have gotten the drop on two professional killers ?
So for me,the bottom line is that Fredo had to have at least one other person in on the plot. Maybe Rocco,maybe one of Fredo's crew,hell maybe even Fredo's wife( that little farce she played after the shooting could nave actually fooled a Corleone)
As far as Rocco being sent on a deliberate suicide mission,remember that Tom was against the hit on Roth. Mike says that "if history has taught us anything it's that you can kill anyone" Mike then turns to Rocco who replies "difficult,not impossible". It's almost as if Rocco wants to one-up Tom,and impress Mike. I wonder what would have happened if Rocco would have said "Tom's right Mike, with all the heat on Roth it's too risky.We can always use our connections and our people to get to him in jail.
I think Rocco was too stupid to keep his ego in check.
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1014920
06/30/21 06:04 PM
06/30/21 06:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
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I also never bought into Rocco-as-traitor. I think Michael was manipulating Rocco into accepting that almost certain suicide mission. After thoroughly dissing and humiliating Tom, he comes out with "you can kill anybody"--and then asks, "Rocco?" What was Rocco going to say--"Uh, nope, Mike, I ain't doin' it."
Maybe Michael was punishing Rocco because the Tahoe attack and the killing of the two NY hoods happened on his watch. More likely: Michael simply viewed Rocco as dispensable. One of Michael's many vices was self-centeredness: Rocco was Clemenza's protege, not Michael's, just as Tom was Sonny's choice for brother and Vito's choice for consigliere--not his.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: Lou_Para]
#1015002
07/01/21 06:24 AM
07/01/21 06:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 89 Adelaide, Australia
lucab19
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No question that Fredo ,at the very least opened the drapes.
However,the one theory that I can't quite swallow is that Fredo killed the assassins on his own.
Could weak,stupid,and bumbling Fredo (remember the scene where Vito was shot,and he dropped his gun) have gotten the drop on two professional killers ?
So for me,the bottom line is that Fredo had to have at least one other person in on the plot. Maybe Rocco,maybe one of Fredo's crew,hell maybe even Fredo's wife( that little farce she played after the shooting could nave actually fooled a Corleone)
As far as Rocco being sent on a deliberate suicide mission,remember that Tom was against the hit on Roth. Mike says that "if history has taught us anything it's that you can kill anyone" Mike then turns to Rocco who replies "difficult,not impossible". It's almost as if Rocco wants to one-up Tom,and impress Mike. I wonder what would have happened if Rocco would have said "Tom's right Mike, with all the heat on Roth it's too risky.We can always use our connections and our people to get to him in jail.
I think Rocco was too stupid to keep his ego in check. As I wrote, it's a real failure in the plot construction. Surely Coppola recognised the massive hole?
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: lucab19]
#1015231
07/03/21 09:47 PM
07/03/21 09:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 70
Don_Alfonso
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No question that Fredo ,at the very least opened the drapes.
However,the one theory that I can't quite swallow is that Fredo killed the assassins on his own.
Could weak,stupid,and bumbling Fredo (remember the scene where Vito was shot,and he dropped his gun) have gotten the drop on two professional killers ?
So for me,the bottom line is that Fredo had to have at least one other person in on the plot. Maybe Rocco,maybe one of Fredo's crew,hell maybe even Fredo's wife( that little farce she played after the shooting could nave actually fooled a Corleone)
As far as Rocco being sent on a deliberate suicide mission,remember that Tom was against the hit on Roth. Mike says that "if history has taught us anything it's that you can kill anyone" Mike then turns to Rocco who replies "difficult,not impossible". It's almost as if Rocco wants to one-up Tom,and impress Mike. I wonder what would have happened if Rocco would have said "Tom's right Mike, with all the heat on Roth it's too risky.We can always use our connections and our people to get to him in jail.
I think Rocco was too stupid to keep his ego in check. As I wrote, it's a real failure in the plot construction. Surely Coppola recognised the massive hole? How's it a hole though? Fredo is established has having a crew, even if they're of Mickey Mouse guys. Maybe Fredo really did know SOMETHING was gonna happen - maybe, say, a kidnapping, rather than a hit. He has his guys make sure the assassins get access to the Tahoe compound. When he realizes he was duped and it's a hit, he has his guys do the would-be assassins in to protect his own ass. Fredo is revealed as the traitor, so I mean, he's the only one with motive to have the assassins knocked off.
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: Don_Alfonso]
#1015237
07/03/21 11:19 PM
07/03/21 11:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
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A long time ago, I (warily) came to that conclusion, by (weak) default--no other likely suspect, he was the traitor, had to cover his ass, presumably had men under his command. But, I can't defend it: The weakness of that theory is that it went down far too quickly for Fredo to realize he'd been duped, decide what to do, and organize his men to kill the attackers.
I've often thought that, if I had the opportunity to ask FFC one question, it'd be: "Who killed the Tahoe shooters?"
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: Turnbull]
#1015825
07/11/21 01:16 AM
07/11/21 01:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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I also “never bought into Rocco-as-traitor†If there was the slightest suspicion Rocco was the traitor, I believe there was no way Michael would have let Rocco live let alone continue to be in charge of security and safety of the compound and the family - “trusting [Rocco] with the lives of his wife and his children - the future of the family†Rocco linked to MichaelI too reckon killing Roth need not have been a suicide mission at all The Godfather Novel What did Don Vito Corleone see in Rocco Lampone Didn't the two just have different positions in the organisation? We learn that Rocco built a secret regime, smoething that only Vito and Michael knew about. So, just as Neri is Michael's Luca, Rocco is Michael's Clemenza Neri been already picked for Fredo's killing So it is logical Rocco gets picked for Roth's Killing A long time ago, I (warily) came to that conclusion, by (weak) default--no other likely suspect, he was the traitor, had to cover his ass, presumably had men under his command. But, I can't defend it: The weakness of that theory is that it went down far too quickly for Fredo to realize he'd been duped, decide what to do, and organize his men to kill the attackers Not if Fredo knew it was a hit and was prepared for it It was the assassins who were duped Say if the assassins were told to wait by Fredo and Deanna's bedroom [where their bodies were found - Right out their window lying there dead] for Fredo to hide / smuggle them out but were always going to be killed – Dead men tell no tales I've often thought that, if I had the opportunity to ask FFC one question, it'd be: "Who killed the Tahoe shooters?" I can answer that! Fredo!! Tom and Fredo Very insightful post, Evita. I agree with what you said. Especially how Fredo was underestimated. He was such an ineffectual dunce in GF that his betrayal of Michael in II had strong impact--we probably never would have guessed he had it in him...and what else he might have tried if Michael had given him a pass. Guilt and gratitude are the most fleeting of emotions The assassins would never have suspected the “ineffectual dunce†had it in him and would have been sitting ducks! Perhaps Fredo did have it in him!
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Re: Why do people think Rocco was the traitor?
[Re: Trojan]
#1017343
08/03/21 06:13 AM
08/03/21 06:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
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