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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023078
11/06/21 02:32 AM
11/06/21 02:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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I think Kay realized that Michael approved of murder as a tool to get what he wanted even before she married him--when he wooed her in New Hampshire. That's when he said his father was no different than other powerful men; and when she said that Senators and Governors didn't have men killed, he said, "Now who's being naive, Kay?"
The look on Kay's face at the very end of GF says it all: After Michael denied Connie's hysterical accusations, she seemed reassured. But then, when Clemenza walked in, kissed his hand and said, "Don Corleone," Kay knew everything about the murders of Carlo, etc., was true.
I also think Kay made here decision to leave right after the Tahoe shooting, when you see her clutching her child and glaring at Michael. Just a few hours earlier he said he was "trying" to leave The Life; now The Life had nearly cost her life, his and his kids. Goodbye Michael.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023100
11/06/21 04:41 PM
11/06/21 04:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473 No. Virginia
mustachepete
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I also think Connie made here decision to leave right after the Tahoe shooting, when you see her clutching her child and glaring at Michael. I watched GF3 recently. It takes on an almost comical note where Michael's ushering her around Sicily, and the discovery of Tommasino's body puts a damper on the afternoon. She just says, "It never ends...," doesn't leave, doesn't forbid the kids to go near Michael, even sits next to him at the opera.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Turnbull]
#1023112
11/06/21 08:10 PM
11/06/21 08:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 89 Adelaide, Australia
lucab19
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I think Kay realized that Michael approved of murder as a tool to get what he wanted even before she married him--when he wooed her in New Hampshire. That's when he said his father was no different than other powerful men; and when she said that Senators and Governors didn't have men killed, he said, "Now who's being naive, Kay?"
The look on Kay's face at the very end of GF says it all: After Michael denied Connie's hysterical accusations, she seemed reassured. But then, when Clemenza walked in, kissed his hand and said, "Don Corleone," Connie knew everything about the murders of Carlo, etc., was true.
I also think Connie made here decision to leave right after the Tahoe shooting, when you see her clutching her child and glaring at Michael. Just a few hours earlier he said he was "trying" to leave The Life; now The Life had nearly cost her life, his and his kids. Goodbye Michael. That's a Bingo!
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023121
11/07/21 12:48 AM
11/07/21 12:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
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Extract: No doubt Kay knew what Michael's business was when they married but when do we think she realized he had personally murdered himself
Was it when the Chairman asked about Sollozzo and McCluskey? Whilst Kay knew that Michael had become a man like his "Underworld Chief" father and orders murders including Carlo's, I believe, Kay didn't know until this day! of the Senate hearing that Michael “had personally murdered himself“ I believe “when the Chairman asked about Sollozzo and McCluskey” that's when Kay put together - Michael's disappearance and Tom refusing Kay's letter to Michael Tom: Well, if I accepted that in a court of law they could prove that I have knowledge of his whereabouts dawning on Kay that's why Michael had to disappear, it was actually confirmed beyond doubt to Kay, shattering her delusions that her husband not only ordered murders but had personally committed murders himself - It seems to me, there were two noticeable reactions from Kay at the Senate hearing
First Kay drops her head to her chest Chairman: He [previous witness Willie Cicci] has stated that you are the head of the most powerful Mafia family in this country Second Kay looks horrified, her eyes darting from side to side Chairman: The witness has testified that you are personally responsible for the murder of a New York City police Caption in 1947 and with him a man named Virgil Sollozzo
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023122
11/07/21 12:48 AM
11/07/21 12:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Underboss
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Extract: Also was it then [Senate hearing] her final decision made, to leave the life she had chosen My view, contrary to popular belief, Kay's that look if looks could kill! after the Tahoe shooting may not have spelled it was all over red rover, then and there Kay was unsettled and furious their bedroom was machine gun sprayed that “nearly cost her life, his and his kids” and the shooting jolted Kay into reality, the denial and delusions no longer holding up It was certainly a wake up call and then the subsequent events including Kay was a 'prisoner' within the compound [yet still managed to have the abortion!] And Kay the dutiful wife sitting through the Senate proceedings, listening to all those heinous, horrendous things being said about her evil husband, knowing they were all true which I believe triggered the final nail in the coffin Actually Kay may have thought Michael will surely be sent to prison! for perjury if nothing else and Kay would be a free woman without having to lecture Michael on this Sicilian thing that's been going on for 2,000 years....
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023125
11/07/21 06:22 AM
11/07/21 06:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
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Underboss
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Posts: 569
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No doubt Kay knew what Michael's business was when they married but when do we think she realized he had personally murdered himself
Was it when the Chairman asked about Sollozzo and McCluskey? Also was it then her final decision made, to leave the life she had chosen Both realization at the Senate proceedings
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: JCrusher]
#1023137
11/07/21 01:06 PM
11/07/21 01:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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Kay was shocked and horrified at the end of GF when she realized that all of Connie's accusations were true--that her husband really was a murderer and a Mafia Don. Michael had told her never to ask about his business. I think she used it as a rationale for accommodating herself to the situation, rather than leaving him or filing for divorce. And, things seemed to settle down after they moved to Nevada and Michael became a "legitimate" businessman and "public benefactor" of the State University. But, the influx of Michael's gangster associates at Anthony's party upset her and reminded her that her husband was still in the OC life (you see this in part of a deleted scene). She reminded Michael, while they were dancing, of his pledge that the Corleones would be "completely legitimate in five years--that was seven years ago." And then, bang! The bullets started flying. She was already at the end of her patience--the attack sent her over the edge.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023181
11/08/21 01:07 AM
11/08/21 01:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
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I doubt “Kay made here decision to leave right after the Tahoe shooting” mainly because if she had, Kay wouldn't have had the 'abortion' No need Why? What is the point? - As we'd debated before – abortion or miscarriage?!
on further review! of the Hotel Washington scene which still never fails to baffle! me that Kay was under the impression, she could just walk in and tell Michael Kay: I'm not going back to Nevada I brought the children to say good-bye to you and Michael would allow it Sure thing Kay take my children from me It is not an impossibility It was always going to happen.... I believe, Kay threw in the spiteful abortion to inflict [additional] pain “It was a son Michael a son and I had it killed” only after Extract: Michael: I know you blame me [Tahoe shooting] for losing the baby....and you'll forget about this miscarriage and we'll have another child
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: lucab19]
#1023194
11/08/21 11:31 AM
11/08/21 11:31 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I think Kay realized that Michael approved of murder as a tool to get what he wanted even before she married him--when he wooed her in New Hampshire. That's when he said his father was no different than other powerful men; and when she said that Senators and Governors didn't have men killed, he said, "Now who's being naive, Kay?"
The look on Kay's face at the very end of GF says it all: After Michael denied Connie's hysterical accusations, she seemed reassured. But then, when Clemenza walked in, kissed his hand and said, "Don Corleone," Connie knew everything about the murders of Carlo, etc., was true.
I also think Connie made here decision to leave right after the Tahoe shooting, when you see her clutching her child and glaring at Michael. Just a few hours earlier he said he was "trying" to leave The Life; now The Life had nearly cost her life, his and his kids. Goodbye Michael. That's a Bingo! You just say "Bingo" 
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1023209
11/08/21 08:24 PM
11/08/21 08:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
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I doubt “Kay made here decision to leave right after the Tahoe shooting” mainly because if she had, Kay wouldn't have had the 'abortion' No need Why? What is the point? - As we'd debated before – abortion or miscarriage?!
on further review! of the Hotel Washington scene which still never fails to baffle! me that Kay was under the impression, she could just walk in and tell Michael Kay: I'm not going back to Nevada I brought the children to say good-bye to you and Michael would allow it Sure thing Kay take my children from me It is not an impossibility It was always going to happen.... I believe, Kay threw in the spiteful abortion to inflict [additional] pain “It was a son Michael a son and I had it killed” only after Extract: Michael: I know you blame me [Tahoe shooting] for losing the baby....and you'll forget about this miscarriage and we'll have another child Oh -- who's being naïve, Kay and blind It is baffling that Kay was under the impression, she could just leave after good-bye Pop but obviously she did No doubt Kay threw in the spiteful abortion to inflict [additional] pain after Michael's miscarriage comment including I know what that meant to you She also wasn't happy he was too smart to let any of them beat him and was not sent to prison! for perjury if nothing else
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023224
11/09/21 01:15 AM
11/09/21 01:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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Willie Cicci was so blasé about breaking Omertà Cicci caused a fair degree of damage to Michael's standing, certainly dented his “legitimacy” even though Cicci said he never talked to Michael ie: Cicci got no direct orders from Michael - that too only because Cicci's lawyer shakes his head for Cicci to say no! among others - - Cicci was an employee of Genco Olive Oil Company, front for The Corleone crime organization, called The Corleone Family
- Cicci in actuality was a soldier / button who killed people at the behest of his superiors
- Cicci named Michael as the Head of The Corleone Family
- Cicci testified Michael was personally responsible for the murders of New York City police Caption McCluskey and Sollozzo
- Cicci stated the Family had a lot of buffers ie: between Michael and the people who gave the actual kill orders
Was it also Cicci who revealed the following - - Michael devised the murder of the heads of the so-called five families in New York
- Michael has a controlling interest in three of the major hotels in Las Vegas
- Michael has interests or control over gambling or narcotics in New York
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1023225
11/09/21 01:46 AM
11/09/21 01:46 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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Cicci never testified to any of the charges against Michael--all he said was that he was a member of the Corleone crime family; that Michael was the head of the family; that he was a button who killed on orders--and that he never spoke to Michael. It's all in the transcript. The specific charges that Michael was asked about probably were fed to the subcommittee by Roth, through Questadt.
BUT: Cicci damaged Michael by testifying that he was the head of a crime family. And, unlike Frankie, he didn't recant his testimony. Since he said he never got a direct order from Michael, he was of no further use to the government. There was no Witness Protection Program then, and the government had no need to provide him with extra protection like they gave Frankie (IMO, they probably thought Frankie would eventually give them something they could use against Michael). Would Michael give Cicci a pass because he said he never got a direct order--or would he have Cicci whacked in prison for betraying him?
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Turnbull]
#1023226
11/09/21 03:31 AM
11/09/21 03:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
Underboss
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Underboss
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Posts: 569
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Chairman said We have testimony from a witness -- a previous witness, one -- Willie Cicci. Kay looks horrified, her eyes darting from side to side Chairman: The witness has testified that you are personally responsible for the murder of a New York City police Caption in 1947 and with him a man named Virgil Sollozzo Just because not shown not mean he got a pass same as Fabrizio, Rosatos all got whacked Pentangeli also revealed Michael's specific charges to the subcommittee
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1023227
11/09/21 03:37 AM
11/09/21 03:37 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
Underboss
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Underboss
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Posts: 569
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Michael: There's a car waiting for you outside to take you to the airport What flight you're on? Kay: That plane goes to [New England] Michael: That's where I want it met
You have to answer for Anthony's Consigliere! It was Roth style not Carlo
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Turnbull]
#1023250
11/10/21 01:54 AM
11/10/21 01:54 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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Cicci never testified to any of the charges against Michael--all he said was that he was a member of the Corleone crime family; that Michael was the head of the family; that he was a button who killed on orders--and that he never spoke to Michael. It's all in the transcript. The specific charges that Michael was asked about probably were fed to the subcommittee by Roth, through Questadt.
BUT: Cicci damaged Michael by testifying that he was the head of a crime family. And, unlike Frankie, he didn't recant his testimony. Since he said he never got a direct order from Michael, he was of no further use to the government. There was no Witness Protection Program then, and the government had no need to provide him with extra protection like they gave Frankie (IMO, they probably thought Frankie would eventually give them something they could use against Michael). Would Michael give Cicci a pass because he said he never got a direct order--or would he have Cicci whacked in prison for betraying him? Cicci saying "he never talked to Michael" ie: "he never got a direct order" is small potatoes! compared to all the murderous, sordid history, aired by Cicci Cicci blew the lid off exposing everything including the inner workings, the organizational structure and besmirched the Corleone name but worse! - Cicci put it out there on public record that there is a Corleone Crime Family headed by Michael, the Chief [Don] of which Cicci “was a button who killed on orders”
- kill orders get filtered through the buffers ie: there was no need for the Chief to speak to the buttons but clearly the order came down from the Chief
It was big news back then - Syndicate Big Shot Vito Corleone's youngest son who was forced to leave this country because of all these 'false' charges - Newspaper Headlines "Police Hunt Cop Killer" "Police Captain Linked With Drug Rackets" “Gangland Violence"Cicci testified Michael was personally responsible for the murders of New York City Police Captain McCluskey and Sollozzo It was Michael all along I can't see Cicci getting a pass No way! after testifying against Michael, in public too Cicci is a dead man even if Cicci was under government extra protection
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Re: Kay's realisation of Murderer Michael
[Re: Trojan]
#1023251
11/10/21 01:54 AM
11/10/21 01:54 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Underboss
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Australia
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1. Why do these "Underworld Chief" call their crime families by their blood family names 2. Isn't that a dead giveaway to the law enforcement 3. Didn't they learn anything from the great man, Mr Roth Michael rebuked Pentangeli Your Family? Your Family is still called Corleone and you'll run it like a Corleone
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