0 registered members (),
83
guests, and 33
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics43,347
Posts1,086,181
Members10,381
|
Most Online1,254 Mar 13th, 2025
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Trojan]
#1023678
11/14/21 01:36 AM
11/14/21 01:36 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
|
Tom: Now your new son-in-law, give him something important? Vito: Never Give him a living but never discuss the Family business with him If Vito had such contempt for Carlo why allow the marriage in the first place? the trigger that changed the course of events Carlo had high hopes! Carlo: Hey look, Sonny, Tom I'd like to talk to you maybe after dinner. I could be doing a lot more for the Family Sonny was forced to get involved in Carlo beating up Connie because of Vito's inaction resulting in Sonny's death and.....
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1023682
11/14/21 03:14 AM
11/14/21 03:14 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
|

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
|
Start right near the beginning, after Vito was shot:
Tom said it would be impossible to gun down a police captain. And, when Michael volunteered to kill Mac and Sol, Tom scoffed. But Michael replied: "I'm talking about a cop -- that's mixed up in drugs. I'm talking about a dishonest cop -- a crooked cop who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was coming to him. That's a terrific story. And we have newspaper people on the payroll, don't we, Tom? And they might like a story like that."
Michael should have followed his own advice because he was right: the newspapers had already played up Vito's shooting. So, instead of Michael killing Mac, he and Tom could have leaked Mac's involvement with Sol the drug dealer and Vito's shooting to the reporters on the Corleones' payroll. They'd have given it a tremendous sendoff. The Police Commissioner, embarrassed, would have had to suspend or transfer Mac, and assign police protection to Vito in hospital to prevent further embarrassment. The entire police force would have been ordered to hunt down Sol and kill him, "attempting to escape," to prevent him from squealing on his relationship with Mac. Michael, his hands clean, could have married Kay and gone back to college. And we wouldn't have had a Godfather Trilogy.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Trojan]
#1023757
11/15/21 02:39 AM
11/15/21 02:39 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
|

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
|
Evita, Michael was saying that the reporters on the Corleones' payroll would love a story about how a dead, crooked Mac (killed by Michael) got what was coming to him. I'm saying that they'd love even more to have the opportunity to expose a live, crooked cop mixed up with drugs and murder because, when the Police Commissioner fired, suspended or transferred Mac, they could brag that they did a "civic duty" by "exposing corruption."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Turnbull]
#1023769
11/15/21 12:03 PM
11/15/21 12:03 PM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
|
Evita, Michael was saying that the reporters on the Corleones' payroll would love a story about how a dead, crooked Mac (killed by Michael) got what was coming to him. I'm saying that they'd love even more to have the opportunity to expose a live, crooked cop mixed up with drugs and murder because, when the Police Commissioner fired, suspended or transferred Mac, they could brag that they did a "civic duty" by "exposing corruption." But Sollozzo was the problem, not McCluskey, McCluskey was just collateral damage. Michael's whole point was that they can't wait, because Sollozzo was going to kill Vito ("That's the key for him.") How long would it take to get McCluskey fired, transferred or suspended? Days? Weeks? Months? Even once he was dead, it seemed to take a while for the newspapers to get enough out on McCluskey to allow things to loosen up. It surely would take longer if McCluskey was still alive. And getting McCluskey out of the picture doesn't mean that Sollozzo is no longer a threat to Vito. It just makes Sollozzo a bit easier to kill.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Trojan]
#1023964
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
|
among others - 1. Sonny letting Sollozzo know, Sonny was hot for Sollozzo's narcotics deal 2. Sonny was a hothead, can't talk business with him yet Vito would have made Sonny Don if Sonny had not been killed 3. Sonny also taking the risk visiting his goumar Lucy's apartment during the gangland warfare Tom not digging deep enough to unearth the Barzini connection with Sollozzo's narcotics trade deal Tom obviously stopped when Tom unearthed the Tattaglia connection and looked pretty pleased with his handiwork when Sollozzo said “My compliments” Then Vito would have upped his personal protection and been ready for Barzini too Tom letting his one and only client, Michael commit perjury because Tom had no idea Pentangeli had survived and was the secret weapon being prepared in custody, to corroborate Michael's murderous, nefarious power as the head of the Corleone crime family Tom also had no idea Roth was returning to America after being refused refuge in various other countries oh, well! Tom was not a wartime Consiglieri
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Trojan]
#1023965
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
|
among others - Michael having got hit by thunderbolt Appollonia, blowing his cover, tells Appollonia's father Vitelli in front of his bodyguards – tempting Fabrizio to turn traitor I am an American, hiding in Sicily My name is Michael Corleone There are people who'd pay a lot of money for that information Michael [and Vito too] did nothing to nurture Fredo unless we count Sonny packing Fredo off to learn the casino business Poor Fredo copped it from everyone - Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna Michael went away soon after the Tahoe bedroom shooting, then was away for Christmas, New Year comes home and doesn't even offer comfort and support to his wife Kay who had just had a miscarriage Then goes and talks to Carmela, his mother about losing their family instead of Kay, his wife Go figure! How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#1023966
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
|
When the said Police Captain is found dead right next to a man named Virgil Sollozzo whose business was narcotics..... Michael: What I want -- what's most important to me is that I have a guarantee: No more attempts on my father's life Sollozzo: What guarantees could I give you, Mike? I am the hunted one! I missed my chance You think too much of me, kid I'm not that clever All I want, is a truce Truce until Sollozzo finds another way! this time fatal for Vito It seems McCluskey was taking bribes left, right and centre even openly dining with narcotics man Sollozzo Wasn't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Trojan]
#1023987
11/18/21 08:34 AM
11/18/21 08:34 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
|
Special
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473
No. Virginia
|
The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop
Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: mustachepete]
#1024022
11/18/21 07:19 PM
11/18/21 07:19 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
OP
Underboss
|
OP
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
|
The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop
Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life. I also reckon Michael still could have had a life away from Mafia if not for Vito no doubt True Pete Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. There is no indication from what was seen in the movie that he discouraged the wedding If Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo why let him into the family, to marry his only daughter? As we debated in Vito and Fredo thread: I reckon it is not complaining or blaming their parents It is not interfering, it is parental guidance Sonny's philandering, Connie's bad choice of husband, Carlo's wife beating, Fredo's sexual excess, Moe slapping him around all went undisciplined Fredo was left rudderless Vito's action, inaction and slip ups adversely affected every one of his children and his son-in-law including violent deaths
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Turnbull]
#1024035
11/19/21 01:39 AM
11/19/21 01:39 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
|
Weren't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!
The novel says they were. Tom told Sonny that "he's greedy and untrustworthy to do business with." It makes sense McCluskey would be taking bribes and kickbacks from every criminal big and small However McCluskey pulling the “guinea hoods” guarding Vito in the hospital off so that Sollozzo can finish Vito off, would get around and as “greedy and untrustworthy” as McCluskey is, wouldn't it make all the others paying McCluskey off, jittery, causing problems
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: mustachepete]
#1024036
11/19/21 01:39 AM
11/19/21 01:39 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
|
The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop
Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life Sure thing Pete “Characters have to be credited with free will” to mess up! “or there's no story to tell” - What did Vito do, to guide, mentor, nurture and embrace his different sons?
Fredoespecially the son who seemingly was not cut out for Mafia life Vito's dismissal of Fredo “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --” Thanks! Pop Fredo feeling inadequate that Fredo was a failure because of the pressure Fredo was under that he was not more like Pop Then adding insult to injury Fredo was stepped over without making any face-saving provision for him SonnyIf Sonny had not been killed rushing to Connie's aid [due to Vito's inaction] Sonny getting killed as a bad Don was just a matter of time MichaelMichael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo So why didn't Vito let Michael try “a life away from Mafia” on his return from Sicily instead of dragging Michael deeper into criminal life
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1024087
11/19/21 08:30 PM
11/19/21 08:30 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
OP
Underboss
|
OP
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
|
Weren't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!
The novel says they were. Tom told Sonny that "he's greedy and untrustworthy to do business with." It makes sense McCluskey would be taking bribes and kickbacks from every criminal big and small However McCluskey pulling the “guinea hoods” guarding Vito in the hospital off so that Sollozzo can finish Vito off, would get around and as “greedy and untrustworthy” as McCluskey is, wouldn't it make all the others paying McCluskey off, jittery, causing problems Maybe the Corleones were not paying him because setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off is not the act of a friend
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Capri]
#1024185
11/21/21 08:45 PM
11/21/21 08:45 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
|
Special
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,473
No. Virginia
|
How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?! Maybe I'm misunderstanding: I believe that Mama lived as part of their household, so would know whenever Kay was not healthy.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1024795
12/01/21 09:32 PM
12/01/21 09:32 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
OP
Underboss
|
OP
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
|
Tom and Sonny talk about McCluskey as a brand new development? Tom: I found out about this Captain McCluskey who broke Mike's jaw... Sonny: What about him? Tom: Now he's definitely on Sollozzo's payroll and for big money McCluskey has agreed to be the Turk's bodyguard It seems to me McCluskey was not on the Corleones payroll? and from what we saw in the movie – McCluskey “setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off” - sort of makes sense now.... It is fleshed out in the book McCluskey was peeved he has to return the money because Sollozzo's men couldn't get to Vito He was also under the impression Michael would surrender after killing Sollozzo It never occurred to him he was his next victim
|
|
|
Re: Corleones destiny
[Re: Trojan]
#1025026
12/06/21 06:18 AM
12/06/21 06:18 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
|
Mama would have known of Fredo's betrayal and that he was banished from the compound but would have never thought he would be killed Connie knew too
|
|
|
|