Ok, right. We all know Saddam did bad things, so we attacked him...in the first Gulf War. It doesn't take 2 wars. It SHOULDN'T take 2 wars.

Moore DOES do more then make movies. He writes books and travels the country going to colleges encouraging people to vote. I don't remember Michael Moore or myself ever saying that we're 'against our government.' We dislike our government, but we aren't going to go down to Pennsylvania Ave. and start a riot. -Pat

One question Pat...

How is it patriotic of Michael Moore to compare the insurgents in Iraq (you know, the ones who abduct and behead civilians and kill american soldiers) to minutemen from the American revolution?

I'd say that's providing support for the enemy, but that's just me.

Because the insurgents in Iraq are the minutemen for their revolution against our soldiers. BTW, you're right. It's just you. -Pat

Ohhh I get it. The "minutemen" in Iraq aren't really bad people. They're freedom fighters, right?

So let me get this straight:

You think it is ok for Michael Moore to support those who behead civilians, blow up american soldiers, and torture and kill Iraqis. This is excusable because they're fighting for "freedom"

The insurgency isn't fighting to free Iraq Pat. They're fighting to destroy the United States. Don't even try to suggest the insurgents are supported by the Iraqi population. Look at the stories of Iraqis who lived in Fallujah while it was under the control of Zarqawi and his terrorist followers. Here's some of what occurred in Fallujah under the "minutemen":

"Mutilated bodies dumped on Fallujah's bombed out streets today painted a harrowing picture of eight months of rebel rule. As US and Iraqi troops mopped up the last vestiges of resistance in the city after a week of bombardment and fighting, residents who stayed on through last week's offensive were emerging and telling harrowing tales of the brutality they endured.

Flyposters still litter the walls bearing all manner of decrees from insurgent commanders, to be heeded on pain of death. Amid the rubble of the main shopping street, one decree bearing the insurgents' insignia - two Kalashnikovs propped together - and dated November 1 gives vendors three days to remove nine market stalls from outside the city's library or face execution. The pretext given is that the rebels wanted to convert the building into a headquarters for the "Mujahidin Advisory Council" through which they ran the city.

Another poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.

Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head. Just six metres away on the same street lay the decomposing corpse of a blonde-haired white woman, too disfigured for swift identification but presumed to be the body of one of the many foreign hostages kidnapped by the rebels. It was initially thought to be either the body of Margaret Hassan, the Dublin-born aid worker with dual British and Iraqi nationality who was kidnapped last month, or a Polish woman kidnapped two weeks ago. A Polish official said today there was no evidence to suggest that the body was that of the kidnapped Pole."

"But we were happy you did what you did [liberate the city] because Fallujah had been suffocated by the Mujahidin. Anyone considered suspicious would be slaughtered. We would see unknown corpses around the city all the time." The same story of arbitrary executions was told by another resident, found by US troops cowering in his home with his brother and his family.

"They would wear black masks, carry rocket-propelled grenades and Kalashnikovs, and search streets and alleys," said Iyad Assam, 24. "I would hear stories, about how they executed five men one day and seven another for collaborating with the Americans. They made checkpoints on the roads. They put announcements on walls banning music and telling women to wear the veil from head to toe."

It was not just pedlars of alcohol or Western videos and women deemed improperly dressed who faced the militants' wrath. Even residents who regard themselves as observant Muslims lived in fear because they did not share the puritan brand of Sunni Islam that the insurgents enforced. One devotee of a Sufi sect, followers of a mystical form of worship deemed herectical by the hardliners, told how he and other members of his order had lived in terror inside their homes for fear of retribution. "It was a very hard life. We couldn't move. We could not work," said the man sporting the white robe and skullcap prescribed by his faith. "If they had any issue with a person, they would kill him or throw him in jail."

Source: Timesonline

Look at that Pat. The "minutemen" you think are helping the Iraqis escape the boot of American imperialism are really violent thugs who have lost any support they may have had in Iraq. Could you explain to me again how it's not anti-american to equate these murderers with American minutemen?

That's odd. I don't remember saying they weren't bad people, so don't put words in my mouth. The other part is correct though. They're freedom fighters.

Wow. Another odd remark. I don't remember saying I support them and I don't remember reading anything about Michael Moore supporting them. Calling them minutemen of Iraq isn't supporting them. They're the minutemen of Iraq.

They're fighting to rid the US of their country.

And look at the stories of Iraqi's now. Iraq is twice as bad now as it was when we first entered. BTW, Iraq didn't have terrorists until we went into that country. We turned our backs on the center of terrorism in Afghanistan.
http://occupationwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=13
http://occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=7923

Another odd statement. What a surprise. I never said the minutemen of Iraq were helping Iraqi people. I said they were fighting to get the US out of Iraq and fighting the US. BTW, don't talk about thugs if you don't know the true meaning. Thanks.

Could you explain to me how it IS anti-American to compare the insurgents in Iraq to our minutemen? I have said nothing anti-American in this post. -Pat

Who's freedom are they fighting for Pat? Most of the insurgents aren't even from Iraq.

Well PERHAPS you don't support the insurgents, but Michael Moore certainly does. I quote:
"The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the revolution, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow-and they will win".

According to Moore, the insurgents aren't even the enemy!
There were terrorists in Iraq before we attacked them. Abu Abbas, who was on the U.S. most wanted list, was in Iraq. Their were also reports of meetings between Iraqi officials and Al Qaeda operatives, including offers of safe harbor for Bin Laden. This is according to the 9/11 commission report. You also have to remember Saddam's support for Palestinian suicide bombers. At any rate, I don't plan on getting into another debate about why we're at war in Iraq, especially with someone like yourself. Oh and about the links, SOMETHING UNBIASED PLEASE

Oh no, more "odd" statements! Sorry I don't follow popular rap culture Pat, I just use the dictionaries definition of "thug" instead. After all, everyone can't be as knowledgeable as you are
:rolleyes:

Damn, just look what I got myself into. I wasted a few precious minutes of my young life responding to someone who thinks the Al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq can somehow be equated with American minutemen. I should probably return to watching Double-J argue with Pat instead .

It is alot more fun. Grab a drink and a snack and its VERY enjoyable lol

They're fighting for freedom from democracy.

Ok... I could give 2 shits if Moore supports them. Just because I like the guy doesn't mean I agree with every single word he says.

They're revolutionaries.

Yes, the Washington Post is so biased!

Apology accepted...this time.

:)

Haha, I don't visit the forum for a few days, and look what happens - two people take my place, and my post goes unnoticed (nice job btw both of you, Fifilopez and my buddy Baggins)

Freedom for another oppresive extremist regime?


This statement is the epitomy of arrogance. The "minutemen of Iraq," who hide behind masks, can use women and children to commit suicide bombings and sneak attacks. Yes, they are the same as our forefathers who stood up against the British taxation.

We should leave.

If Afghanistan is so bad, then why were there elections? Hell, there was a national golf tourney there recently. Iraq didn't have terrorists? What would you call Saddam Hussein? A "lethal persuader?" Maybe you'd call him a hero, like Castro.

BTW - OccupationWatch or whatever...I'd like to give my two cents - when have you ever actually seen a media outlet try to seriously show the Iraqis that are benefitting? That's not news, and nobody sees that.



Can you educate us in some thuganomics? We tried to post a dictionary link in another thread.

1.) The United States is attempting to bring personal freedoms and rights to a land (Iraq) where there has previously been none. The British utilized the colonies soley for economic purpose, taxed them with none (or, at best, farcical) representation in Parliament, and exploited their citizens across the Atlantic.

2.) The "minutemen" of Iraq hide bhind masks, and attack civilians. The Minutement of Boston Harbor fought the British Army.

3.) Is it anti-American?

No. We should give the insurgents medals of honor, for trying to promote peace and stability. Comparing modern day thugs and murderers with true freedom fighters and soldiers is not only an insult to our forefathers, but portrays these insurgents as something of merit, which they clearly are not.

Yes.

They're the minutemen of Iraq.

We wouldn't have to leave if we never would've went in.

Afghanistan's new leader has nearly been assassinated over half a dozen times for Christ's sakes. If he leaves Kabul, someone tries to kill him. Saddam was a dictator. Don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

Um. The articles on OccuupationWatch that I posted were from the Washington Post.

I explained the meaning to Signore the other day and provided him with a link. "Go and look back at the thread."

That's great, but I really don't care. Iraq, just like the rest of the Middle East, will never be free.

The minutemen of Iraq attack everyone who don't fight for their cause.

I don't remember saying I liked these guys nor do I remember saying they were doing the right thing, so don't put words in my mouth.

BTW, you didn't reply to any of my post that I posted to you. All you replied to was posts I made to Baggins. -Pat

Let's frame this forever...


There.


I just wanted to clarify who we were talking about when we said "Sudan."

I agree, very likely. I wish we'd leave now.

Even if we wouldn't have warred with Iraq, that money, for the most part, wouldn't have been allocated to alleviate poverty.

I don't. Why did it take so long? Because there was no precedent; the United States hadn't been attacked since Pearl Harbor in that way.

I find your humour rather unwarrented.

Okay, I can see your point here. Like I said, the penal system should take into account such things, but at the same time, should still punish the convicted party regardless, in accordance with statues on the crime committed.

Millions and millions of people warrents a slight fix?

Since we've only gone back and forth, what would you suggest for fixes? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Clearly it's not bothering the 1.31 million (source: USA today) women who are still committing murder annually in the United States alone.

Well what beliefs is it supposed to bloody well affect then? The ones you hide in your room?

Again, I don't oppose abortion because I am a Catholic, though it involves my faith in my case. My belief in this case is, sans the aforementioned religion, is ethical and scientific, both of which clearly indicate that abortion is murder.

w00t. Am I supposed to have a heart attack because , coincidentally, John Kerry and I agree on something?

Wow. I think hell is frozen over now.

:rolleyes:

Again, I find this wholly laughable. I think he should move someplace else and see if he is able to make a documentary against that government...maybe Singapore perhaps.

He enjoys the personal freedom to disagree with his government, not slander said institution.

Regards,
Double-J

w00t.

No, they are blasphemous would-be martyrs.

w00t. Impressive logic, were you good at mathematical proofs in junior high?

What's so hard to understand?

You're right. Stalin and Hitler we're just plain dictators too.

Um. You're missing my point completely. I'm talking about media bias in general.



Somehow, I'm not surprised.

That's a pretty bold statement. Free from what?

That makes them real heroes. :rolleyes:

Maybe Paul Revere should've whacked the wives and children of British soldiers. After all, they were against his cause, too.

Umm...okay. I did, and I just did now.

Regards,
Double-J

So do I.

Oh yeh, Bush's friends. I forgot.

What about the USS Cole and the WTC bombing?

Yes.

Go talk to a woman who got an abortion and ask her how much runs through her head each day about it. It's something they'll never forget.

My spiritual beliefs are my personal spiritual beliefs. I won't let those personal beliefs impact everyone else's.

You oppose it because you think abortion is murder and that murder is against your religion, so yes, you oppose it because you're Catholic.

Michael Moore's movie was no different then the Stolen Honors documentary, FahrenHYPE 9/11, or anything like that.

Minutemen of Iraq.

Thanks.

Hmm, so I can't compare FDR to Bush, Pearl Harbor to 9/11, but you can still compare Hitler to Saddam?

We need more liberal media. The conservative media is taking over.

Free like the US.

I never said it made them heroes. I said they were the Minutemen of Iraq and were fighting for their country. -Pat

How are they fighting for "their" country when most of them are not even Iraqi?

How are the terrorists fighting for their country when they don't have the support of the population (as I recall you ignored the information I posted about what the residents of fallujah thought of the "freedom fighters")?

I'm sure Michael Moore is entitled to do what he chooses and whichever side he is on is not the side of the troops bc his actions just like Jane Fonda's during the Vietnam War cost us many of our P.O.W's life. I know Pat, how can writing a book and going on TV to talk about voting hurt our soldiers? when he's putting down our President it appears America has gone to their respective corners once again. When at the beginning of this war we had not only our allies on our side but every single American as well. Sad to say now but everyone has their personal opinions about the troops but no one can hear what the troops want. We don't want to die but we don't want to live in our own country in fear either.

Considering his new book is about soldiers who wrote him thanking him about making Fahrenheit 9/11, I highly doubt all the soldiers hate him.

So what about the other 55 million + who put down our President?

That's because Bush lied to us and said Iraq had WMDs and wanted to use them against us.

Who cares what the troops want?! I'm so sick of hearing about it. Our soldiers sign up to defend our country. Why should we send them gifts and snack packs when they have a bed to sleep on each night? There's people starving in America and these troops want more then what they need.

Disliking our President doesn't mean we dislike the troops. -Pat

I'm glad to hear you finally come out of the closet Pat. You really DO NOT support our troops. You think the people who are risking their lives daily for their country are not worth a damn. Instead we should throw even MORE money at impoverished poeople who won't use it to improve their lives anyways. You think our greedy troops "want more than what they need". You've went quite a bit overboard on this one, although frankly I'm not surprised you think those that are dying to defend you are not worthy of a few small gifts from back home. Disgusting.

You disgust me. Who are you to question an impoverished one's intelligence? You think if someone has one setback in life that they shouldn't be given the chance to get a new job or get a new house? BTW, how does not wanting to send soldiers things that they don't need 'not support them?' Soldiers don't need these snack packs and things that they keep requesting. Soldiers need weapons and armor to fight in war, not a damn snack pack.

I don't think the other guy phrased it well, but if the soldiers want some f*ckig snack packs, we should give them some f*cking snack packs. They're contributions are something that is beyond your understanding... after what they're doing all day if they want some snacks then why can't they have snacks? You'd rather send this food to low-lifes on the street who won't even work, or other low-lifes that are just heading for prison. I'll tell you who should care what the troops want-- you.

Oh yeah, Bush didn't lie to us. If anyone lied, it was the CIA, MI6, and Russian Intel. If it was Bush's job to know better than what the CIA tells him, and what other agencies are confirming, I don't know how he could have known it was ba intel.

Well maybe you should send them a f*cking letter telling them to forget the snack pack, and get out their with their gun and put their life on the line while you sit back in freedom and complain that they want snacks.

We're not TELLING them to put their lives on the line. They volunteered for the Army, Marines, Navy, or whatever. We didn't force them to do it and if I were a freaking soldier over there, I'd want a gun and armor a whole lot more then a damn snack pack. I'd feel better knowing that the food went to a homeless person then me, when I already have food. You all saw the pictures from Thanksgiving. They all had their turkey and big meal. There are people here who DIDN'T.

Well then maybe they should join the military if they have such a great time over there with their turkey.

The majority of the military are already the lower class. The people who you want to forget are the ones who are fighting for you. -Pat

Good grief this thread just won't die.


it's been my view that patrick will say anything to defend that piece of you know what. I'm sure you all know who I'm referring to.

I'd also like to add. Mr Baggins, Double J, and anyone else I maybe forgetting. Keep it up, you all shoot patricks arguments down very nicely.

It died on the first page but nobody had the nerve to tell the combatants that.

Considering I said that I don't agree with everything Moore says, I don't know how that's 'defending him.' Also, better grammar skills would be nice.

Considering I said that I don't agree with everything Moore says, I don't know how that's 'defending him.' Also, better grammar skills would be nice. [/b][/quote]Patrick I was referring to Micheal Moore calling the insurgents in Iraq. Minutemen you've defended that statement every single time. Moore is clearly wrong on that issue.

Now you're resorting to basically attacking my grammar skills. Oh you wound me :rolleyes:

Wow! We finally agree on something.

Oh yeah. Going into corrupt political programs, like Ted Kennedy/John Kerry's Bostonian fiasco known as "The Big Dig."

Both were conventional, since they were bombings. Also, neither was on the scale of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor (that doesn't excuse the act, or the seriousness of the crimes).

I think maybe if it was a few hundred, a slight fix would be in order, but when we're talking millions, an overhaul is necessary, especially if the system itself admits it will collapse within our lifetimes.


w00t. Good. It should haunt her.

Clearly, the baby thinks about it every day too, since it's dead.

My guess is that you neglected to read the part where it says to teach and spread the word of Christ...

Again, I'm not letting my religious beliefs impact anyone else - my feelings on this and gay marriage, for the sake of this argument, come from ethics. But that notwithstanding, I could give two flying fucks whether someone is offended because I have strong moral and religious convictions.

Clearly it bothers some democrats that our President (not unlike Reagan...hmm) has a strong, faith-based moral system.


Really? I didn't know you couldn't oppose a procedure because it is also ethically and scientifically murder, as well.

Except his came first. :p

You spit upon our forefathers and their sacrifice with that statement.

You're comparing dictators, and their genocidal tendancies. I have no problem bringing in two relevant examples.

Your comparisons of FDR and Bush ante-post are unwarrented and unvalid, because you seem to think FDR and Bush had similar situations (other than an attack on the United States).




You're serious, aren't you?

Yeah.

CBS & NBC & ABC & CNN & Headline News & MSNBC v. Fox.

I see a trend here...

Their "minutemen" will surely keep that in line, right? Since they are fighting for rights and independance?

I guess Kerry lied too, since he saw the intelligence, and voted to go to war.


THE EPITOME OF ARROGANCE.

Deserves it's own thread.

Regards,
Double-J

Corrupt like Haliburton.

An attack is an attack. Osama did it before. He could do it again.

The fetus or embryo, you mean.

So you're saying that homosexuality is a bad ethic?

Yes.

Ok? What's your point?

Yes. When George W. Bush was running for President in 2000, his national guard performance was mentioned 17 times. The Clinton/Lewinsky scandal was mentioned over 13,000 times. Source: Alan Colmes

They're fighting for THEIR rights and THEIR beliefs. I never said they were the right beliefs.

He saw the intelligence that Bush told everyone was accurate.

Do you have an attention disorder or something? Making the own thread only makes a fool out of you, so I look forward to it. -Pat

Ooh, good call. Pretty soon, you'll be telling me to go out and buy some Heinz ketchup. :p


Not when we're comparing conventional versus unconventional...

Trivialize life again, you (expletive). Whatever you call it, it's still a human being.


Yes.


Well, you're wrong. You still have yet to prove how it isn't murder, despite your belief that the womb is some kind of life-giving passage or stepping stone that defines living or unliving, which, is coincidentally, scientifically wrong.


My point is that the others you mentioned came almost in retort towards the "original," Michael Moore shockumentary.

Your point? He never relied on his military service, as opposed to someone else we know with three highly questionable purple hearts...

So you commend them even if their motives defy freedom?

You mean the intelligence collected and displayed to Bush, which he then passed along to congress.

I still love how liberals make it "Bush's" intelligence.

Who is the fool? The fool himself, or the fool who follows him? Clearly you've had to defend your ridiculous stance. I have no problem displaying to the rest of the boards your sincere feelings as opposed to your "I'm a patriotic american who hates our government, but loves our liberties, and the poor, but hates tax cuts, even if I don't pay them, anti-troop support" cookie-cutting liberal opinion.

Regards,
Double-J

I thought so myself.

That's purely an opinion. Bush was wrong not to look into the Osama report. PERIOD.

This is the 3rd or 4th thing we've had to stop talking about because your maturity level doesn't allow you to handle it.

Then I would say that you're homophobic and are afraid of homosexuals, which you can get counseling for (seriously).

It isn't murder. It's choice. It's not murder until the fetus is out of the womb and it's able to live on its' own.

And what about the thousands upon thousands of conservative books made before Moore's movie? There are far more conservative books then liberal.

The media is more conservative then it is liberal.

I'm not 'commending' them. I think that they're doing what they truly believe in.

No, I mean the intelligence that he told all citizens about even after he knew it was false.

You.

You call my stance ridiculous because it disagrees with yours. Even I wouldn't stoop to the level of insulting your stance. Your opinion? Fine. It only matters to me when you try and make it impactful on society. -Pat