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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Trojan]
#1030043
02/15/22 11:38 PM
02/15/22 11:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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As we saw, Michael was keeping his family at a distance at Connies wedding. If he'd been married at that time, he'd have been even more aloof from his family, But, as a dutiful son, he went to visit his father at the hospital. There's no reason for me to think he wouldn't have visited Vito if he'd been married.
The key event in the Trilogy is Michael finding no guards on Vito at the hospital, and Mac slugging him. Those events set him on an irrevocable path--it awoke the dormant Corleone in him. I'm guessing that, even if he were married, he'd have wanted to kill Sol and Mac--to protect Vito and for vengeance.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Turnbull]
#1030048
02/16/22 01:22 AM
02/16/22 01:22 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
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What a dilemma! only civilian Michael could get near Sollozzo to carry out the killings of Sollozzo and McCluskey Sure thing Turnbull - Extracts: "There's no reason for me to think he wouldn't have visited Vito if he'd been married" and “even if he were married, he'd have wanted to kill Sol and Mac--to protect Vito and for vengeance” However... - what about Kay? and their children?
- I can't see Kay and the kids hiding out! in the Sicilian countryside, with Michael which would be even more dangerous as well
- and the WASP! drawing even more attention
- would Michael just disappear leaving his wife and kids not knowing when he would be back?
- would Sonny be able to “square it” with Kay after Michael's AWOL same as with Mama Corleone
- I doubt Kay gonna come along with Michael in these things he has to do -- or what and more likely takes the children and moves them all to New Hampshire!
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1030052
02/16/22 03:57 AM
02/16/22 03:57 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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However... - what about Kay? and their children?,
- I can't see Kay and the kids hiding out! in the Sicilian countryside, with Michael which would be even more dangerous as wella
- and the WASP! drawing even more attention
- would Michael just disappear leaving his wife and kids not knowing when he would be back?
- would Sonny be able to “square it” with Kay after Michael's AWOL same as with Mama Corleoneeance
- I doubt Kay gonna come along with Michael in these things he has to do -- or what and more likely takes the children and moves them all to New Hampshire!
All of this is speculative, Lana, which is what makes your original question so interesting.  All I can say is that, IMO, the hospital drama unlocked the inner Corleone in Michael, meaning (to me) that the Sicilian Mafia fixation on "honor" and "vengeance" dwelled within Michael, and it doesn't necessarily follow a logical path. Although Michael wasn't married to Kay at that point, and had no children, he clearly loved Kay and was planning to marry her (according to the novel) soon, But, he abandoned her to protect his father and for vengeance. In the novel, Vito says (several times) that 'A man has but one destiny:" I believe Michael's destiny was to be a criminal--successor to Vito. I can't justify my viewpoint beond that.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Turnbull]
#1030106
02/17/22 01:33 AM
02/17/22 01:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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All of this is speculative, Lana, which is what makes your original question so interesting.  All I can say is that, IMO, the hospital drama unlocked the inner Corleone in Michael, meaning (to me) that the Sicilian Mafia fixation on "honor" and "vengeance" dwelled within Michael, and it doesn't necessarily follow a logical path. Although Michael wasn't married to Kay at that point, and had no children, he clearly loved Kay and was planning to marry her (according to the novel) soon, But, he abandoned her to protect his father and for vengeance Sure thing Turnbull “All of this is speculative” which keeps the Board fire still burning! We have pretty much exhausted all possible avenues, half a century on and now resorting to – not “necessarily follow a logical path” what ifs – which are still riveting! for us die-hard fans to engage in and enjoy.... I [believe along with other participating members] am just grateful someone keeps coming up with “original question so interesting” including this thread by Evita The sequence of events starting with Michael learning of Vito's shooting, undoubtedly “unlocked the inner Corleone in Michael” including Michael: Pop I'll take care of you now I'm with you now I'm with you It seems once Michael learnt of Vito's shooting, Michael's girlfriend, Kay was on the outer, shut out “he abandoned her to protect his father and for vengeance” but different scenario if Michael was married to Kay at that point and/or had children If the Corleones can't get Sollozzo, Sollozzo will get Vito and the only one who could get to Sollozzo was civilian Michael catch-22 no-brainer! indeed
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Turnbull]
#1030107
02/17/22 01:33 AM
02/17/22 01:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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In the novel, Vito says (several times) that 'A man has but one destiny:" I believe Michael's destiny was to be a criminal--successor to Vito. I can't justify my viewpoint beond that. I always appreciate your view point whether justified or not! [as mine! can be as well] and enjoy our enthralling! debates If everything is justified, what is there to debate?! My take, for what it is worth! I believe Michael still had the “destiny” of a life away from Mafia on his return from Sicily as Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo if Vito hadn't dragged Michael deeper into criminal life
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Trojan]
#1030108
02/17/22 01:33 AM
02/17/22 01:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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Sollozzo only wants civilian Michael to proposition but really to buy time until he can finish Vito off If he did kill Sol and Mac, would he need to go into hiding? exile option is not viable with Kay
Who is going to identify the son of the top Mafia Don not the waiter! He was nervous and struggling to open the bottle of wine even before anything happened We can see Sollozzo's annoyance too That poor waiter sprayed with blood and brains all over his nice white uniform, let alone.... - Another interesting twist
The killer of Sol and Mac, perhaps need not go into exile after all and Kay never knows that it was Michael all along!
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1030109
02/17/22 03:12 AM
02/17/22 03:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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I believe Michael still had the “destiny” of a life away from Mafia on his return from Sicily as Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo if Vito hadn't dragged Michael deeper into criminal life
Certainly Michael had choices not to be a criminal at each stage of his life.I started a thread on that subject: http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=872539&Searchpage=1&Main=34326&Words=%2BSorry%2C+%2BPop&Search=true#Post872539 But, he chose the criminal path each time. His destiny? Maybe...
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Trojan]
#1030138
02/17/22 04:57 PM
02/17/22 04:57 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I think the book fleshes out that Sonny was ruled out because he has a wife and kids unlike Michael then but now if he is in the same boat No doubt dilemma!
Sollozzo only wants civilian Michael to proposition but really to buy time until he can finish Vito off If he did kill Sol and Mac, would he need to go into hiding? exile option is not viable with Kay
Who is going to identify the son of the top Mafia Don I don't think Michael went to Sicily to avoid criminal prosecution. He was trying to escape a retaliatory hit. While Vito talks at the meeting of the need to clear Michael of "all these false charges" the real message - and motivation for making peace - was to make it safe for Michael to come back without being assassinated. It doesn't seem like any officials know of Michael's involvement until Cicci rats Michael out to the Senate committee. Getting back to the original question, the Mafia code of the day probably meant that a wife and kids would not be targeted. So it's definitely possible that Michael still would have gone through with the hit, viewing the time away from his family as a necessary sacrifice to keep his father safe.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#1030144
02/17/22 07:46 PM
02/17/22 07:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
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I think the book fleshes out that Sonny was ruled out because he has a wife and kids unlike Michael then but now if he is in the same boat No doubt dilemma!
Sollozzo only wants civilian Michael to proposition but really to buy time until he can finish Vito off If he did kill Sol and Mac, would he need to go into hiding? exile option is not viable with Kay
Who is going to identify the son of the top Mafia Don I don't think Michael went to Sicily to avoid criminal prosecution. He was trying to escape a retaliatory hit. While Vito talks at the meeting of the need to clear Michael of "all these false charges" the real message - and motivation for making peace - was to make it safe for Michael to come back without being assassinated. It doesn't seem like any officials know of Michael's involvement until Cicci rats Michael out to the Senate committee. Getting back to the original question, the Mafia code of the day probably meant that a wife and kids would not be targeted. So it's definitely possible that Michael still would have gone through with the hit, viewing the time away from his family as a necessary sacrifice to keep his father safe. Insightful evaluation Woltz as always No doubt it's definitely possible that Michael still would have gone through with the hit because If the Corleones can't get Sollozzo, Sollozzo will get Vito and the only one who could get to Sollozzo was civilian Michael While Michael viewing the time away from his family as a necessary sacrifice to keep his father safe but what about his wife Kay and/or any children? I reckon it is unlikely she would be told beforehand and before or after I doubt Kay gonna come along with Michael in these things he has to do -- or what
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Turnbull]
#1030145
02/17/22 07:54 PM
02/17/22 07:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
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I believe Michael still had the “destiny” of a life away from Mafia on his return from Sicily as Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo if Vito hadn't dragged Michael deeper into criminal life
Certainly Michael had choices not to be a criminal at each stage of his life.I started a thread on that subject: http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=872539&Searchpage=1&Main=34326&Words=%2BSorry%2C+%2BPop&Search=true#Post872539 But, he chose the criminal path each time. His destiny? Maybe... It was Vito who chose the criminal path for him, with the added burden of trying to make decades old Mafia business legitimate Vito could have cut their losses and walked away from Mafia, leaving Clemenza and Tessio in charge but he didn't because he wanted, needed the Corleone family reputation, standing, history etc. to be restored, leaving a murderous legacy for Michael Once Michael took over, it was not easy just to walk away Kill or be Killed No one is going to give him a pass and let him off because at some stage, he chose not to employ criminal tactics, for protection from the horrors of their Dog-eat-Dog world, no longer What choices he had not to be a criminal at any stage of his life?
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#1030155
02/18/22 01:11 AM
02/18/22 01:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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I don't think Michael went to Sicily to avoid criminal prosecution. He was trying to escape a retaliatory hit.
While Vito talks at the meeting of the need to clear Michael of "all these false charges" the real message - and motivation for making peace - was to make it safe for Michael to come back without being assassinated.
It doesn't seem like any officials know of Michael's involvement until Cicci rats Michael out to the Senate committee.
Getting back to the original question, the Mafia code of the day probably meant that a wife and kids would not be targeted. So it's definitely possible that Michael still would have gone through with the hit, viewing the time away from his family as a necessary sacrifice to keep his father safe It seems to me it was both “criminal prosecution” and “retaliatory hit” Michael is a dead man either way by whoever gets to him first If Tattaglia who is a pimp and Barzini the puppeteer hiding behind Tattaglia [presumably both would have known about Sollozzo-McCluskey-Michael meeting] still had the stomach! to take on the Corleones who had just gunned down a New York police captain, which has never been done before.... If Michael is identified as the Cop killer "Police Hunt Cop Killer" "City Cracks Down" No surprise - killed resisting arrest / trying to escape I agree Woltz “the real message - and motivation for making peace - was to make it safe for Michael to come back without being assassinated” Vito made the drug protection concessions from perceived weak position and things have also loosened up, all of which lulling other Dons into a false sense of security 1. no Sonny 2. Vito was sick 3. and Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well 4. Michael was not considered Mafia Don material nor threat
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Turnbull]
#1030156
02/18/22 01:11 AM
02/18/22 01:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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I believe Michael still had the “destiny” of a life away from Mafia on his return from Sicily as Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo if Vito hadn't dragged Michael deeper into criminal life Certainly Michael had choices not to be a criminal at each stage of his life.I started a thread on that subject: Michael's choicesBut, he chose the criminal path each time. His destiny? Maybe... “Once Michael took over” it was “Dog-eat-Dog” and “Kill or be Killed” even more so than Vito's times Tiger by the tail indeed Besides Michael needed his muscle [Pentangeli] otherwise Michael becomes just another casino operator, easy pickings for anyone
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Re: If Michael and Kay already married
[Re: Trojan]
#1030382
02/22/22 01:19 AM
02/22/22 01:19 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389
Australia
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I reckon he need not have gone into hiding and could have weathered the storm Maybe so but it would have been brutal....Pretty goddamn bad with all the other Families lining up against the Corleones even with Michael in exile let alone....and Vito still in the hospital As regards investing his wealth legitimately, could he have got licenses in his name for legal casinos in Nevada from the Gaming Commission with his nefarious history? Did Michael have licences in his name / ownership, prior and only later forced to hide his controlling interests Anthony's party - Geary: The Corleone family has done very well here in Nevada You own or you control, two major hotels in Vegas one in Reno The licenses were grandfathered in, so there is no problem with the gaming commission Senate hearing - Questadt: Is it true that you have a controlling interest [no mention of ownership] in three of the major hotels in Las Vegas Michael: No it is not true I own stock in some of the hotels there but very little [hidden]
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