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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: Liggio]
#1031880
03/25/22 05:20 PM
03/25/22 05:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
jace
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
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That entire roundup and subsequent trial was centered around those Gotti tapes, if not for those tapes and Gotti's big mouth, they wouldn't have been sitting in that courtroom AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT. Sure, they probably would've gotten them using some other kind of method later on down the line, but it was those tapes with Gotti's big mouth on them that ultimately brought them down at that point in time. No Gotti fanboys please, I want neutral posters only, because I'm not too fond of either Gotti or Gravano, but facts are facts. The trail centered more on Gravano's testimony, and other evidence. Gravano just used the tapes as his excuse. Even if there were no tapes, especially with that judge, they were all in trouble.
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: Liggio]
#1031893
03/25/22 06:53 PM
03/25/22 06:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,364 Houston
Liggio
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,364
Houston
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Okay, let's say that Gravano would've turned out to be a rat regardless, I'm still not convinced that Gotti didn't bring himself, as well as many others, down with those tapes. I'm sure they would've gotten him no matter what, but who's to say that it wouldn't have been another 5 years if not for his big mouth. He was talking about the Castellano, Bilotti, DiBono, DiBernardo, and other murders on tape, long after they were committed. Absolutely no reason to bring those up. That's one of the rules, never discuss past murders. Those tapes are what allowed the feds to obtain a court-authorized arrest warrant for Gotti, Gravano, and Locascio that day. They probably would've brought them down eventually regardless, but they would've had to find some other way if wiretaps didn't work.
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: Liggio]
#1031958
03/26/22 03:20 PM
03/26/22 03:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
JackieAprile
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
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I think a more interesting thing to consider is, in a hypothetical scenario where Gotti and Gravano aren’t indicted in 1990, does Sammy make a move against Gotti?
His Star was rising. He was already Underboss. He also didn’t like John’s increasing courting of the press. He had good relationships with other key members of other families. He was a tremendous earner. He also had whacked out several rivals.
He and John were also innately cut from two different cloths. Sammy was white collar and had been a strong Castellano man, and was arguably more important in the Family than John was before Paul’s slaying. Certainly, Paul valued Sammy more.
Obviously making a move on John would require taking out Peter, Gene, and John Jr as well
But would he have done it? Would he have had support?
Remember, he had made the pact with DeCicco to give John a year before they clipped him. So the thought of clipping John and taking over HAD crossed Sammy’s mind before
Last edited by JackieAprile; 03/26/22 03:22 PM.
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: Liggio]
#1031959
03/26/22 03:25 PM
03/26/22 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
JackieAprile
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
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What I'm saying, I don't agree with what he did, because he did take an oath, I'm just finding it hard to hate him as much as other rats out there. If Sammy had flipped for reasons of principle, just to get revenge on Gotti, he would’ve limited his ratting only to Gotti and not to Frankie Loc and so many other gangsters in the family. He flipped to save his own ass from prison. The “I wanted to get revenge on John” is just self promoting PR bs to create a mystique on himself, make himself look like less of a rat, and also to help him sleep better at night The guy was no Macchiveli. He was a guy who was afraid of prison and didn’t believe in LCN anymore.
Last edited by JackieAprile; 03/26/22 03:26 PM.
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: JackieAprile]
#1031960
03/26/22 03:32 PM
03/26/22 03:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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I think a more interesting thing to consider is, in a hypothetical scenario where Gotti and Gravano aren’t indicted in 1990, does Sammy make a move against Gotti?
His Star was rising. He was already Underboss. He also didn’t like John’s increasing courting of the press. He had good relationships with other key members of other families. He was a tremendous earner. He also had whacked out several rivals.
He and John were also innately cut from two different cloths. Sammy was white collar and had been a strong Castellano man, and was arguably more important in the Family than John was before Paul’s slaying. Certainly, Paul valued Sammy more.
Obviously making a move on John would require taking out Peter, Gene, and John Jr as well
But would he have done it? Would he have had support?
Remember, he had made the pact with DeCicco to give John a year before they clipped him. So the thought of clipping John and taking over HAD crossed Sammy’s mind before Good question, Jackie. And, it could be turned around: Would Gotti have whacked Gravano? The apartment tapes are filled with Gotti resenting Gravano's business success. Everything during Gotti's reign as boss was all about him--the "king." We heard him say he had DiB whacked because DiB failed to answer his summons. Seems like it wouldn't have taken too much more for him to get rid of Gravano. . :
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: Liggio]
#1031976
03/26/22 05:17 PM
03/26/22 05:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
JackieAprile
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
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Turnbull:
I say that the relationship between Gotti and Gravano wouldn’t have lasted two more years even without the indictment in 90
Either Gotti would’ve taken Gravano out
Or Gravano would’ve gone after Gotti. In the latter scenario I can see sort of a miniature version of a Colombo style war breaking out in the Gambinos. Gravano with white collar loyalists - ironically, a lot of Castellano men - take out John, and the brothers, and son, which then provoke a rebellion by his hardcore followers and friends in the Family. Lasts maybe six months to a year.
I think that either way, one of the two men would’ve been dead by the end of 1992
Gotti’s ego was such he was becoming suspicious that Sammy would eventually outshine him and maybe as such move against him. And whatever admiration or affection he had had for Sammy was turning into resentment, paranoia and jealousy. And he had other made guys who were also jealous pissing in his ear. All it would take would be someone claiming Sammy was planning on a move, like what Angie did with DiB, and Sammy would be gone
For his part, I don’t think Sammy ever fully respected John. He respected his guts and his balls. But I do think the white collar part of Sammy looked down on John as an empty suit, a flashy degenerate gambler. As much as Sammy wants to play the I was a gangster card, he was as much a racketeer as Paul was. Difference is he got his hands actively dirty. But he was not from the Dellacroce street school. He was a white collar man who allied with John because it was at the time beneficial for him to do so. Before that he’d been one of Paul’s golden boys.
They were a pair of narcissists who were destined to destroy each other down the line
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: JackieAprile]
#1031996
03/26/22 09:03 PM
03/26/22 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
jace
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,779
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What I'm saying, I don't agree with what he did, because he did take an oath, I'm just finding it hard to hate him as much as other rats out there. If Sammy had flipped for reasons of principle, just to get revenge on Gotti, he would’ve limited his ratting only to Gotti and not to Frankie Loc and so many other gangsters in the family. He flipped to save his own ass from prison. The “I wanted to get revenge on John” is just self promoting PR bs to create a mystique on himself, make himself look like less of a rat, and also to help him sleep better at nightThe guy was no Macchiveli. He was a guy who was afraid of prison and didn’t believe in LCN anymore. Exactly, plus he gave up people form other families. It was not about Gotti, it was all about Sammy being a self serving coward and punk.
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Re: If Gotti Had Never Mentioned Gravano On Tape
[Re: Liggio]
#1032017
03/27/22 06:40 AM
03/27/22 06:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,529 Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, NYC
BensonHURST
Bensonhurst
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Bensonhurst
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,529
Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, NYC
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So many what If's
Sammy had said a few times John was being John...
However, it appears that Sammy, was turning out top be a "GREEN EYED MONSTER"
Gotti still lived in the same house he did from when he was first made. Didn't really have very many businesses.
He wasn't trying to acquire any sort of wealth.
No real-estate buildings.
Gravano, had the 5,6, 7 businesses.
The tapes really would have sank Gravano's boat I believe more than Gotti's
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