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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1041116
10/02/22 12:12 AM
10/02/22 12:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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The women were culpable too They knew what their husbands' business was, knew their rich, privileged life was funded by tainted money from other people's murder, misery and blood I think Vito's rejoinder to this is that his wife isn't culpable because he isn't culpable. He is doing what the President does, what the Senator does, what General does, what the Industrialist does, what the Banker and Lawyer do. They all kill and steal. Vito seems resigned to a rough time when he has to answer to God, but he simply doesn't recognize that he has to answer to these others. Well put Vito was delusional indeed Well said almost worked for him if not for the loss of Sonny, catapulting Michael into taking over Still could have cut his losses, handed over to Clemenza and Tessio and walked away, retired. 1. Vito alive 2. Michael could have lived a "legitimate" life in Nevada 3. Fredo continues learning the casino business with Greene Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino My take, even if Sonny was not killed, it was never going to work for them - Well, Buckleys and None - known murderous, top Mafia, Corleone family and Michael Corleone in "this clean country, in his oily hair -- dressed up in those silk suits and try to pass himself off as decent American Senator"!
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: lucab19]
#1041117
10/02/22 12:12 AM
10/02/22 12:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino
Nothing could stop Carlo from having to answer for Sonny. Even in this re-imagined Corleone world, with Michael having gone legitimate, I reckon he would do it himself Sure thing Carlo was always a dead man however keeping Carlo close / closer, without raising any suspicions until Vito's death, to answer for Santino, would have been no easy, almost impossible task It was always going to be Michael's job to get Carlo to answer for Santino because Nice! Guy Vito would never do it himself Vito left it for Michael to be the “lousy cold-hearted bastard” and make his daughter a widow Thanks! Pop
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1041118
10/02/22 12:12 AM
10/02/22 12:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Underboss
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Would Nice guy Vito have stomach to make his daughter widow He told Michael I don't want anything to happen to him while I am alive. Nice! guy Vito Connie: Michael! You lousy bastard -- you killed my husband! You waited until Papa died so nobody could stop you and then you killed him You blamed him for Sonny -- you always did Everybody did but you never thought about me -- you never gave a damn about me Now what am I going to do?
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: lucab19]
#1041123
10/02/22 09:11 AM
10/02/22 09:11 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
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Posts: 569
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Would Nice guy Vito have stomach to make his daughter widow He told Michael I don't want anything to happen to him while I am alive. That's not in the movie. I'm pretty sure it's not in the book either? Do you have a source for it? Read the papers -- read the papers!
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1041132
10/02/22 06:37 PM
10/02/22 06:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
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My take, even if Sonny was not killed, it was never going to work for them - Well, Buckleys and None - known murderous, top Mafia, Corleone family and Michael Corleone in "this clean country, in his oily hair -- dressed up in those silk suits and try to pass himself off as decent American Senator"! I too reckon, Crime and Politics never going to work for them but Crime and "legitimacy" could, same as Pentangeli and Michael
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#1041133
10/02/22 06:41 PM
10/02/22 06:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
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Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino
Nothing could stop Carlo from having to answer for Sonny. Even in this re-imagined Corleone world, with Michael having gone legitimate, I reckon he would do it himself Sure thing Carlo was always a dead man however keeping Carlo close / closer, without raising any suspicions until Vito's death, to answer for Santino, would have been no easy, almost impossible task It was always going to be Michael's job to get Carlo to answer for Santino because Nice! Guy Vito would never do it himself Vito left it for Michael to be the “lousy cold-hearted bastard” and make his daughter a widow Thanks! Pop No doubt Nice! Guy Vito wouldn't want his daughter to think he is “lousy cold-hearted bastard” but okay for her brother
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1041602
10/10/22 12:07 AM
10/10/22 12:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Underboss
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Well, Calo said “She'll make a good American wife” When Michael was teaching Apollonia to drive [actually it was the other way around! Pacino couldn't drive then!] - Don Tommasino's car drives in, sounding its horn Michael walks over to it and helps Tommasino out of the car as Apollonia runs over and kisses him Apollonia: [In Italian] “Michael is teaching me to drive -- watch, I'll show you” later [pressing the car horn] Michele - Michele, Let's go -- let's go -- you promised me My take, for what it is worth! I acknowledge whilst Apollonia may not have been at the same maturity nor perhaps intelligence level as Michael – not grasping the urgency ie: when Don Tommasino's car drives in sounding its horn nor the seriousness of Don Tommasino and Michael's solemn conversation - Apollonia, at that time was only 16 years old? and been living seemingly a sheltered life in conservative Sicily Michael was a different man then....loving, protective towards Apollonia She was keen and accepting who he was Both Michael and Apollonia would have grown together and lived happily for a hundred years! Godfather 3 - Michael talking to Anthony and Mary about Apollonia She was wonderful, beautiful I loved her And then she died My trusted bodyguard planted a bomb in my car; she drove it before I did
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1041660
10/11/22 11:36 PM
10/11/22 11:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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While no doubt she would have been like Carmela and kept the family together, no interfering in his business, no abortion, no divorce, I wonder how their marriage would grow once the Thunder has bolted and the lust cools!
Apollonia would have accepted Michael for what he was , unlike Kay, who tried (hoped) to change him. The key is that marvelous scene at Sr. Vitelli's cafe, when Michael tells him he's hiding from the police in America and "Some people would pay a lot of money for that information but then your daughter would lose a father instead of gaining a husband." Notice that 'Sr. V is unfazed by Michael's admission that he's on the lam for a probable major crime--possibly mob-related--doesn't even bat an eyelash before inviting Michael to his home. Rural Sicilians of that era--and perhaps this era-intensely distrusted authorities, especially police; and were ready to accept fugitives as, (ahem) "legitimate." Apollonia was part of that same accepting milieu. Michael didn't have to give her all that BS he had to hand Kay when he wooed her in New Hampshire. I'm not making excuses for Michael's criminal nature, I'm just saying that he was in the right place for him when he got hit by the fulmine.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Turnbull]
#1041668
10/12/22 02:00 PM
10/12/22 02:00 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I think Michael may have had the opposite problem with Apollonia as he had with Kay.
Much of Michael's desire to track down and marry Kay had to do with her being a WASP. He used her as part of his plan to be accepted by the American pezzonovante.
Remember, his lifelong desire was to be considered "legitimate" (even if he wasn't).
How would Apollonia have helped with that? Would a rural Sicilian girl have the ability to drink coffee and make small talk with people like Senator Geary's wife?
She didn't seem too eager to learn English, much less to become an American society dame. I can't imagine she would have had any interest in playing the part of a successful businessman's wife.
I think, once the Thunderbolt faded, Michael would have grown very weary of Apollonia and considered her a hindrance to achieving his goals.
If that came to pass, I wonder how he would have handled it?
Last edited by The Last Woltz; 10/12/22 02:00 PM.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#1041669
10/12/22 03:01 PM
10/12/22 03:01 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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You make excellent points, LW. But, at that point in Michael's life, I doubt he was thinking along those lines. The fulminel was still ringing in his ears. And, he was probably figuring that Sonny would be the head of the family until Vito recovered, and he could return to "civilian" life. Of course Apollonia would have been a hindrance to to his obsessive quest for "legitimacy in his Donship, as you said. Hence his bloodless, passionless wooing of Kay in New Hampshire after his return.
This leads to another question: Do you think that he told Kay that he had married in Sicily, and that his bride was killed by mistake by a bomb intended for him? Would Kay have agreed to marry him if he had?
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Turnbull]
#1041670
10/12/22 03:47 PM
10/12/22 03:47 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
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Joined: May 2006
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Pittsburgh, PA
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You make excellent points, LW. But, at that point in Michael's life, I doubt he was thinking along those lines. The fulminel was still ringing in his ears. And, he was probably figuring that Sonny would be the head of the family until Vito recovered, and he could return to "civilian" life. Of course Apollonia would have been a hindrance to to his obsessive quest for "legitimacy in his Donship, as you said. Hence his bloodless, passionless wooing of Kay in New Hampshire after his return.
This leads to another question: Do you think that he told Kay that he had married in Sicily, and that his bride was killed by mistake by a bomb intended for him? Would Kay have agreed to marry him if he had? Fair points, TB. I agree that Michael wasn't thinking about that when he married Apollonia. I was just speculating on an alternative timeline. Good question about Kay. She was certainly aware if it by the time of GFIII, and Michael talked about it quite openly in Sicily. But it's hard to imagine him telling Kay about that before they married and I'd guess not before the Tahoe assassination attempt, as Kay didn't seem to anticipate any personal danger to her or their children.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1041678
10/13/22 02:20 AM
10/13/22 02:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,696
AZ
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While Michael's wooing of Kay may have been bloodless, passionless, I don't think he gave any BS to her. I reckon it was one of the very few, perhaps the only time he was honest with her, truly believing in what he was saying
Honest with her?? Believing in what he was saying?? "The Corleone family will be completely legitimate in five years"?? The family under Michael wouldn't be "legitimate" in five, or seven, or any years, except in Michael's warped, twisted way of imagining "legitimacy.". Try to count all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada. Even in 1979, decades after he married Kay, he still controlled the Commission, and was ordering murders right up to the end.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Turnbull]
#1041704
10/13/22 06:51 PM
10/13/22 06:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,390
Trojan
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Joined: Apr 2014
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While Michael's wooing of Kay may have been bloodless, passionless, I don't think he gave any BS to her. I reckon it was one of the very few, perhaps the only time he was honest with her, truly believing in what he was saying
Honest with her?? Believing in what he was saying?? "The Corleone family will be completely legitimate in five years"?? The family under Michael wouldn't be "legitimate" in five, or seven, or any years, except in Michael's warped, twisted way of imagining "legitimacy.". Try to count all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada. Even in 1979, decades after he married Kay, he still controlled the Commission, and was ordering murders right up to the end. He truly believed in what he was saying Both were delusional that "The Corleone family's decades of criminal activities will be completely legitimate in five years" let alone I reckon The family under Michael was "legitimate" he had achieved the semblance of legitimacy, decent American, successful businessman, philanthropist and as We see in GFIII more "legitimate" than ever While Michael's "legitimate" front was the Elephant in the room, we saw how people were not treating him as crime boss to his face and going along with his "legitimate" front As regards all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada They hit us so -- we hit 'em back.
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1041816
10/15/22 12:07 AM
10/15/22 12:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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My take, both Michael and Kay deluded themselves However when Michael told Kay I mean in five years, the Corleone Family is going to be completely legitimate “ He truly believed in what he was saying” that it would be so Why would Michael need to lie to Kay to get her to marry him? Michael had no qualms marrying Apollonia and surely could have married a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! instead of seeking Kay out
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Turnbull]
#1041825
10/15/22 06:13 AM
10/15/22 06:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 569
Capri
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I'm just saying that he was in the right place for him when he got hit by the fulmine.
1. boredom 2. uncertainty 3. loneliness 4. his friends -- are his bodyguards!
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Re: Corleone women
[Re: Trojan]
#1042231
10/21/22 12:04 AM
10/21/22 12:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,389 Australia
Kangaroo Don
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Why did Kay marry Michael? Kay: Michael, why did you come here? Why? What do you want with me after all this time? Here I was calling and writing.... and knowing Michael was now Mafia
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