. Completely Disagree. Like I mentioned in an earlier post I understand that the thought of Mike is killing his own brother is so horrific that I think we have to almost try and make Fredo look bad to justify it. Also main characters tend to have more sympathy from the audience even if they commit evil acts. But there really is no evidence in that film portrayal of Fredo that he was capable of that ruthlessness. Was he resentful? Yes but not as the point of harming his brother. I think the basic truth is that he simply wanted to be looked at as capable. He wasn’t trying to take out Mike or even remove him from power, I really think Fredo thought he was helping the Corleones. Of course that was stupid but that doesn’t make him ruthless. Again there is zero justification in Mike murdering Fredo. Hell even Mike himself admits in the films he knows Roth misled him but Mikes morality was so far gone at that point it didn’t matter

Excellent, Movie fact-based analysis, Evita - Factual, Insightful Right again! Credit where credit is due....Fair's Fair

Sure thing “Let’s be honest Michael initially did give him [Fredo] a pass” until Fredo's full extent of Fredo's deeper involvement with Roth against his kid brother and treachery were revealed in Fredo's outburst in the boathouse
The Donship any role how important, nothing but the Donship would have sufficed for Fredo as we saw during Fredo's boathouse outburst The only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or sent to prison

Ironically, Fredo would have had no problem taking care of some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! getting slapped around in public by Greene It was the stepped over for his kid brother that got Fredo mad and all fired up....

My take, for what it is worth!

The Dons' lives are on the line everyday, in their kill or be killed criminal empire “that no one--not even his brother--gets a pass from Michael Corleone” However Michael wasn't a Don then Michael was a 'legitimate' businessman!

I am not sure Turnbull whilst I appreciate your “excellent case for it's [Fredo's killing] justification” - nobody witnessed Fredo's boathouse outburst

The general census was - Roth misled Fredo and Fredo [supposedly!] didn't know it was gonna be a hit

Michael could have easily continued the same arrangements of keeping Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death Michael had the money and the resources Michael could have spared Fredo Besides if Mama had lived longer....

Nobody other than Neri, knew Fredo was on borrowed time, had a Lifeline as long as Mama was alive
It looked to Michael's enemies, Fredo had gotten a pass

There was no indication, Michael's enemies tried to exploit, Fredo getting a pass [however long Mama was alive] as a sign of weakness "no one [found] a c***k in his armor"

I doubt Neri would ever exploit or consider Michael weak for giving Fredo, his own - Mickey Mouse night club, brothel running, errand boy - brother, a pass and Rocco [even if Rocco was tempted!] wouldn't dare with Neri around

I agree, Michael even in "This is the business we've chosen." reprehensible criminal empire, has a heart
and Fredo broke Michael's heart -- Fredo broke Michael's heart

Stop confusing me!
Both Lana and Turnbull put up excellent case for and against it's justification

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe, --

We debate how Fredo's murder was a horrific act but he did exactly the same and would have been just as horrific and guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed He was complicit in trying to get his brother killed He stepped over me He did injure him

He might have been mostly honest with Michael about Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- However everything before and since was devious, dishonest, deceitful He was quite the deep thinker too, coming up with all those lies, lie after lie, he was feeding Michael

No doubt he betrayed the family and set his kid brother up to be murdered for the Donship

There is zero evidence suggesting the Fredo knew about the hit. Forget about the boathouse when Ola called him he was clearly upset with him, “You guys lied to me”. Being resentful doesn’t equate trying to kill your brother. Like I mentioned earlier I understand the need to try and find some justification for Mike murdering Fredo. The truth is Roth used his stupidity for his own gain but it’s pretty clear to me that Fredo had no idea Mike and Kay were targets to be killed

I agree.

It's a murky situation all the way around - what Fredo was told, what he was offered, what he finally did. I tend to think now that Coppola and Puzo reached a place in the script where they realized that explaining the hit would result in the audience cheering when Fredo got his, so they just went silent about it.

Spot on! Very murky indeed

My take too, Coppola and Puzo were mystified, clueless themselves at explaining so just left things hanging but we are not going silent about it! We'll get there! Pete -- we'll get there --

Coppola and Puzo did us a huge favour! that we are still debating....

• What did Fredo think was going to happen?

My take, for what it is worth!

“something in it for me -- on my own” was, in my view, the Donship and the only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or in prison

My take, among others -

• Ola's phone call was a warning, veiled threat “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” Don't go squealing or else....
• Fredo's "You guys lied to me" was because Ola didn't deliver on his [*empty promise carrot] - Michael dead and Fredo the new Don - and now Fredo is in deep...."you got me in deep enough already"
• the astute and meticulous Roth would have instructed Ola, to fuel Fredo's resentment and make sure Fredo listened good and inferred [Ref: *Turnbull] the reward is Donship
• Fredo was Hooked! otherwise Fredo would be stuck running Mickey Mouse nightclubs somewhere!
• [Ref: *Evita] Here's the thing Roth didn't have to make the Donship happen, obviously he can't but that was never his intention

Fredo can handle things He's smart -- not like everyone says -- not dumb, smart! Quick and Clever too including after Ola's phone call
"No doubt he [Fredo] betrayed the family and set his kid brother up to be murdered for the Donship" but should Fredo be sleeping with the fishes....

* "Something in it for me"

True Pete Very murky indeed but the fact remains He betrayed his brother for personal gain.

I reckon Ola's phone call confirms,
1. He'd already helped them out and they need some more
2. you got me in deep enough already How so? Why because he helped set Michael up to be murdered for the Donship?
3. Ola's assurance Just go along, everything will be alright this time, not like before when the shooters messed up


I am mystified, clueless too but We'll get there! Lana -- we'll get there -- once Turnbull and you draw the water from the same well. after all -- we are not Fredo haters

. The truth is Fredo was simply duped. He would have never harmed his brother despite any resentment he may have had just not his character. Like I says I understand that Mikes murder if Fredo was so horrific and evil that we need to try and find justification but there is none which is a big part of Part 3. Mike knows he murdered his brother because Roth used him not becstse Frefo tried to harm him or his family

Exactly Evita and the stark contrast between Fredo's boathouse outburst and Michael's tormented, teary confession

Sure thing the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain” indeed and Fredo continued trying to harm and injure Michael


Fredo telling Michael about Questadt was painful to watch like pulling teeth

No doubt it was painful to watch like pulling teeth
Again, if he had volunteered the information then "redeeming feature." but he was still trying to harm and injure Michael, for the Donship

While knowing or not knowing about Questadt made no difference whatsoever to Michael's defense Good or Bad, Frankie's brother was already on his way but he thought he would indict Michael and send him to prison which may very well deliver him the goods, Don Fredo

Fredo's reveal of Questadt eventually, only confirmed in no uncertain terms how he was in deeper with Roth against his own brother

Fredo wasn’t trying to remove Mike from power or harm him he simply wanted to do something important on his own. Once again there is ZERO evidence Fredo was trying g to harm Mike. If you do t believe me then take it from the horse’s mouth. Mike legit tells Tom “I know Roth misled him and he didn’t think they were going to try and kill me”. Was Fredo upset/resentful? Sure buy many people have those feelings, doesn’t mean we are goi g to try and harm that person to get what they have. Fredo is guilty of being easily duped but like I said he thought he was helping Mike and the family. It was stupid no doubt but there was no vicious intent behind it. I get it As the main character we tend to want to protect/defend Mike and make those around him look worse to justify his actions. Look many people like Barzini, Carlo, Roth deserved Mike’s wrath but Fredo certainly not Fredo. Not to get off topic but even Frankie didn’t deserve it. He was loyal and listened to Mike and get still got the shaft after he was put in a situation he didn’t expect. I think the point of Part 2 is to show how far and evil Mike has become and he will take you out even when you never tried to harm him

I agree. To assuage Michael's feelings, there were alternatives to murder of which he could avail himself such as exiling Fredo.

Agreed. Look I’m not arguing that Fredo wasn’t resentful or that he didn’t do something incredibly stupid that almost had deadly consequences. But That’s not the same thing as intentionally trying to harm your brother or even trying to eliminate him from power. Both those things are false when it comes to Fredo. It’s pretty clear Fredo’s main ambition was to do something important the Family on his own. Like you said Mike could have easily killed Roth, the Rosatos, told Frankie to kill himself, and either exile Fredo to shelve hi. Remember by the end when Mike “forgave” him Fredo no longer had any ambitions if his mob status. He was happy that Mike forgave him in his mind and that he was getting close to Anthony. At the end of the day the only person who intentionally tried to and succeeded in trying to harm his brother was….Michael

When you look at it like this it makes the ending to Part II all that more shocking and heartbreaking and also gives you a new perspective. I was also never really quite sold on the idea that Fredo meant to harm Michael. I have also always had this feeling that Fredo was desperate for approval, he really wanted to be on peoples good side. In my opinion this can be seen in the flashback, when he wants to shake Mike's hand and show his brother that he is happy for him. Great post JCrusher!

Now my sources tell me we can teach old topics new tricks!

Fredo shaking Mike's hand happened before he was stepped over!

As Lana posted,

• What a welcome party! Fredo had organised for Michael in his territory
• Fredo is the only one who congratulated Marine Michael and got his hand nearly broken! by Sonny

Fredo put up with whatever was dished out by his father Vito older brother Sonny and being straightened out / slapped around in public by "we're good friends, right Moe" but couldn't handle his kid brother, Michael being the Don because it should have been Fredo

As Turnbull posted,
1. He betrayed his brother for personal gain.
2. What did Fredo think was going to happen?

I reckon he was after the Donship but interested in your explanation as to why even after the Tahoe shooting and the brothers having drinks in Havana if Fredo meant no harm to Michael, his --
1. deliberate and deceitful concealment of the Senate hearing
2. cunningly withholding information
3. I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over!
4. It ain't the way I wanted it!

I think you might be reading into something that isn’t there. You keep bringing up the Senate lawyer but at the end of day Fredo still told Michael about it. If he really wanted to hurt Micheal don’t you think he would you know…never tell him lol. Look you’re entitled to your opinion but right now with the facts presented it’s much more likely that Fredo was simply duped and he only wanted to help the Family NOT harm his brother or remove him from power

My take, for what it is worth!

From what we saw in the movie, in my view, there is no denying that all the evidence, point to -

However if Fredo was not after the Donship and if Fredo meant no harm to Michael and “Fredo was desperate for approval, he really wanted to be on peoples good side” [not on Michael's?!]

• Why would Fredo throw “I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it!” in Michael's face? when “That's the way Pop wanted it”
• Why would the Donship be even an issue? for Fredo

Nevertheless and in spite of all the mounting evidence pointing to Fredo indeed set out to harm and injure his brother Michael, for the Donship and the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain”

All these even after Michael confided in Fredo in Havana and Fredo assured Michael, Michael could trust! Fredo and Fredo even offered to help! Michael


It seems to me, Fredo is even more cunning, devious and ruthless than Vito and Michael put together!
Vito may have picked the wrong son! for Donship

The way Fredo, among others -

• denied knowing Roth and/or Ola
• sat through the brothers having drinks, hiding his true feelings without raising any suspicions
• pretending he has never been to Havana before -- how do you say "banana daiquiri"?
• absorbing the shock of Michael knowing it was Roth who tried to kill Michael in his home – without batting an eyelid
• Fredo's demeanour certainly fooled Michael

Wow! And the Oscar goes to....

He says he doesn't know anything -- and I believe him He certainly fooled Tom too

Roth's inside man Fredo's own words, lie after lie, he was feeding Michael
1. I haven't got a lot to say Mike.
2. I was kept pretty much in the dark.
3. I didn't know all that much.

Let's stretch what was seen onscreen and give him the benefit of the doubt that Roth misled him, he really thought his little help to close the deal fast -- in Roth's favor against his own brother for “something in it for me -- on my own” would be good for the family and he didn't know it was gonna be a hit

If that's all it was,
1. why bring up the Donship?
2. Why would the Donship be even an issue?

Again it seems like you’re reaching for something that isn’t there. Like I’ve said in previous posts I understand the need to want to justify Mike’s actions because he is the main character who you like so it’s easier to make Fredo look evil even though there really is no evidence to support that. Stupid? Yes Resentful? Sure, Ruthless enough to murder his brother and his family? Absolutely Fucking Not lol. I think many of us have experienced having some sort of resentment in our lives but I doubt many of us actually take action to hurt that person. The only person who committed an evil act is Michael. You may not like it but you can’t deny it because we saw it with our own eyes

Why did Fredo think Johnny Ola wanted him to open the drapes in Michael and Kay's bedroom?

to machine gun Michael

Fredo Guilty attempted fratricide
little help open the drapes
“something in it for me -- on my own” Donship

That's it! in a nutshell!

Exactly Evita why mention the Donship at all unless “something in it for me -- on my own” was, the Donship and the only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael was dead or in prison

Why would the Donship be even an issue?
Sure thing if Fredo hadn't mentioned the Donship, we can try and stretch the truth as unconvincing! as it is....

However we can't ignore all the mounting evidence pointing to Fredo indeed set out to harm and injure his brother Michael, for the Donship and the fact remains “He betrayed his brother for personal gain”

Again, the phrase "Somethin' in it for me, on my own," for me implies that Fredo wasn't expecting the Corleone empire to come to him. To me, I think it means something akin to what Roth parcels out on his birthday. Perhaps Fredo is one of Roth's "friends in Nevada"?

The way I see it is that Fredo was so consumed with being stepped over, courtesy of Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- Roth knew that is the only carrot to get him, Roth's pawn, on board

As we debated in "Something in it for me" thread: Roth's empty promise carrot was Donship

All Roth wanted was Michael dead exactly what he set out to do and his job done
He goes back to living his retired investor on a pension exactly as he planned

If he got any Corleone business or in the unlikely event that Fredo became Don, his coglioni would be forever in Roth's pocket.
Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet] It's never been done before. Honey Bunny for the great man, Mr. Roth.

I reckon, we see enough of the Mafia that anyone born and bred, would know they can't set up shop, outside their Family, on their own including perhaps as one of Roth's "friends in Nevada"? or Havana even with Superman!

It is also too distant Fredo wants respect! now and within the Corleone empire

However if Fredo wasn't expecting the Donship, interested in your explanation as to
1. Why did Fredo think Johnny Ola wanted him to open the drapes in Michael and Kay's bedroom?
2. why bring up the Donship?
3. Why would the Donship be even an issue?

We can't ignore, his outburst I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over! It ain't the way I wanted it!